LDSToronto wrote: 1 - works, because I think, today, women who serve later-life missions work as assistants in the office. Though I thought zone leaders & district leaders needed priesthood authority to conduct interviews?
I realize it has always been a priesthood leader who has conducted those interviews but is there any reason the interview has to be conducted by someone with the priesthood? The interview is not an ordinance. Seems to me that would be one of those small steps the church could take without actually giving women the priesthood.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
I think that the Web site is aimed at trying to get Mormons to be comfortable with saying they want to see women ordained. I mean, there are still all kinds of Mormon feminists who are great in other areas, but seem hesitant to say, "Yes, I'd like to see women ordained in my church." There was just a post about this at fMh and I think well over half of the perma-bloggers said they weren't comfortable with seeking ordination or gave rather ambiguous answers.
And remember, Gordon B. Hinckley suggested that one of the reasons that female ordination was not being considered was because "there's no agitation for that." Well, maybe someone had better start agitating then.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
MsJack wrote:I think that the Web site is aimed at trying to get Mormons to be comfortable with saying they want to see women ordained. I mean, there are still all kinds of Mormon feminists who are great in other areas, but seem hesitant to say, "Yes, I'd like to see women ordained in my church." There was just a post about this at fMh and I think well over half of the perma-bloggers said they weren't comfortable with seeking ordination or gave rather ambiguous answers.
And remember, Gordon B. Hinckley suggested that one of the reasons that female ordination was not being considered was because "there's no agitation for that." Well, maybe someone had better start agitating then.
i agree with this, jack. it really crosses a few lines that are not okay with the leaders. as you mention, the website and movement create a place where anyone can say outloud, or on a blog, that they want women to be ordained. the other message is that there are women who want to be leaders, want to be the bishop, want to see women in the top tiers. those public aspirations have always been around, but masked by this fake and stupid act where nobody would choose, aspire to, or ask for a calling.
i am really curious how the agitation will get with an influx of 19 year old girls being bossed around by an influx of 18 year old boys in the missions.
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
Mayan Elephant wrote:i am really curious how the agitation will get with an influx of 19 year old girls being bossed around by an influx of 18 year old boys in the missions.
I'm not sure 19 year-old young women being bossed around by 18 year-old young men is really any worse than the former situation, where 21-23 year-old women were being bossed around by 19-21 year-old men.
Either way, hopefully an influx of women having to deal with Elder Mansplainer will cause a few feminist awakenings.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
Mayan Elephant wrote: i am really curious how the agitation will get with an influx of 19 year old girls being bossed around by an influx of 18 year old boys in the missions.
Please clarify - I never served a mission, but I've been in enough leadership positions to question this statement.
How do male missionaries 'boss around' female missionaries? As far as I know, the mission president is the only person who has authority to 'boss around' missionaries - male and female.
H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level." ~ Ernest Becker "Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death." ~ Simone de Beauvoir
Mayan Elephant wrote: i am really curious how the agitation will get with an influx of 19 year old girls being bossed around by an influx of 18 year old boys in the missions.
Please clarify - I never served a mission, but I've been in enough leadership positions to question this statement.
How do male missionaries 'boss around' female missionaries? As far as I know, the mission president is the only person who has authority to 'boss around' missionaries - male and female.
H.
I knew I'd find something about Mormonism that you didn't know....
Organization of missionaries Missions are organized in two parallel structures. The first is the organization of the missionaries. There are two or more missionaries who serve as assistants to the president (not to be confused with the counselors in the mission presidency). The assistants carry out the direction of the mission president in the organization of the mission, the assigning of companionships and proselyting areas, and oversee the welfare and training of the missionaries. The missionaries are divided into zones, each led by one or more missionaries assigned as zone leaders.[3] The zones may be geographically large or small depending on the mission. The number of missionaries in a zone also varies widely. The zones are divided into districts, each being led by a missionary assigned as a district leader. A district usually has two to four missionary companionships. The zone leaders and district leaders train the missionaries, see after their welfare, conduct interviews, proselyte together, and share successes. In general, only single male missionaries serve as assistants, zone leaders, and district leaders, except in non-proselyting missions which only contain single female missionaries or missionary couples. Each missionary companionship has a geographical area which may include part of a ward or branch, one ward or branch, or several wards or branches. The missionaries are responsible for preaching to the people in their own area. In a mission, the ecclesiastical line of authority is from the mission president down to the missionaries. The missionaries answer to the mission president directly, as opposed to the local branch president, bishop, or stake president.
(All leadership positions and assistant leadership positions go to the males)
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Bazooka wrote:I knew I'd find something about Mormonism that you didn't know....
Still licking your wounds from after losing the Ceeboo cup? ;)
But, in seriousness, I see no reason to withold these leadership positions from sister missionaries. I'd disagree that this constitutes 'bossing around' sister missionaries. My experience of APs (I've been in lot's of Missionary Correlation meetings at the stake level) is that they are glorified secretaries who serve as 'spies' for the mission prez.
The only thing I'd say about the role of elders vs. sisters - elder's have authority to baptize - they determine worthiness of the new prospect. Sisters don't. Sisters have to call upon a zone leader (or district leader, I get the two confused all the time) to authorize a baptism. I've heard it explained, from a few GAs, that the reason male missionaries are called 'elder' is because they have been set apart as authorized ministers to teach the gospel to the world, and this is an apostolic calling of sorts.
H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level." ~ Ernest Becker "Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death." ~ Simone de Beauvoir
Bazooka wrote:I knew I'd find something about Mormonism that you didn't know....
Still licking your wounds from after losing the Ceeboo cup? ;)
But, in seriousness, I see no reason to withold these leadership positions from sister missionaries. I'd disagree that this constitutes 'bossing around' sister missionaries. My experience of APs (I've been in lot's of Missionary Correlation meetings at the stake level) is that they are glorified secretaries who serve as 'spies' for the mission prez.
The only thing I'd say about the role of elders vs. sisters - elder's have authority to baptize - they determine worthiness of the new prospect. Sisters don't. Sisters have to call upon a zone leader (or district leader, I get the two confused all the time) to authorize a baptism. I've heard it explained, from a few GAs, that the reason male missionaries are called 'elder' is because they have been set apart as authorized ministers to teach the gospel to the world, and this is an apostolic calling of sorts.
H.
From what I understand, there is already current reorganization being talked about and coordinated involving sister missionaries holding offices such as District Leaders, Zone Leaders, etc. in the mission field.
With the large influx of female missionaries due to the age reduction, I see this as inevitable. I also see it as a great thing.
We were discussing some of these things on my board, and I would like to copy my post here for further discussion.
Who knows, LDST? We might actually agree on a couple of things.
Has lightning struck twice in the same place somewhere?
This is a portion of a much longer post from my board, but I have included here the pertinent part to what we are currently discussing:
Women holding the priesthood is something, in my opinion, that was always meant to happen, and what Joseph Smith, himself, started to organize when the Church was in its infancy. I am unclear on exactly how the Priesthood of LDS women will be organized as far as Deacon, Teacher, Priest, or some other means, but the result I see happening are the following:
1. In the near future, as in probably the next ten years or less, I see sister missionaries holding callings along side the elders as Zone Leaders, AP's, District Leaders, etc.
2. I also see women being allowed to bless the sick, give blessings and/or participate in the prayer circle for blessings of babies, and set apart members to various callings in organizations such as Primary, Young Women, etc.
3. Eventually, I see "mixed" presidencies, i.e. brothers and sisters serving together as counselors in the Bishopric, Stake Presidency, etc.
If a female has committed a sexual sin that she needs to repent of, wouldn't it make so much more sense for her to be able to confess that sin to another female rather than a male? Shouldn't there be that type of option? (Men being interviewed by men, women being interviewed by women)
These are the types of changes I see occurring over time.
