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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:56 pm
by _Fence Sitter
J Green wrote:I'm not sure I'd advise anything. Have I established a pattern of advising others on personal spiritual matters on this or the other board? Mostly I just sit back and listen.
But I think that you can safely infer from my first comments to Chris that I spend quite a bit of time with some of the branches. Where I see others talking about cognitive dissonance, I enjoy exploring the issues and matching conclusions against my assumptions to see how they fit. As Leigh Nash puts it, "But tension is to be loved, when it is like a passing note to a beautiful, beautiful chord." This brings me back to the indicators I choose. The ones that create beautiful chords in my life. Although I realize it doesn't do the same thing for everyone.
Just my Sixpence on the issue . . .
Jeff,
How would you distinguish your method of choosing indicators from the way the Westburo Baptist Church members choose theirs? (In case you are unaware, they have issued the following statement regarding the tornadoes yesterday.)
Amazing work of God! He promised this gift for a rebel nation! Jeremiah 23:19.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:16 am
by _Darth J
J Green wrote:Darth J wrote:Let's say that someone comes to you and says Justin here says he is a prophet, and he says that God wants me to give Justin 10% of my income. This someone tells you that the reason he knows Justin is a prophet is because he has translated a French text from the 16th century---which you are not allowed to see---that tells the story of how the Americans rode dinosaurs into battle against the Assyrians in the Revolutionary War.
Exactly how much time would you advise this person to spend going from the root to the branch about these claims?
What if he said he had really happy, peaceful feelings when he read my story?
I'm not sure I'd advise anything. Have I established a pattern of advising others on personal spiritual matters on this or the other board? Mostly I just sit back and listen.
But I think that you can safely infer from my first comments to Chris that I spend quite a bit of time with some of the branches. Where I see others talking about cognitive dissonance, I enjoy exploring the issues and matching conclusions against my assumptions to see how they fit. As Leigh Nash puts it, "But tension is to be loved, when it is like a passing note to a beautiful, beautiful chord." This brings me back to the indicators I choose. The ones that create beautiful chords in my life. Although I realize it doesn't do the same thing for everyone.
Just my Sixpence on the issue . . .
I see. So some people might find beautiful, beautiful chords in their life by accepting as historical fact that the Americans rode dinosaurs into battle against the Assyrians in the Revolutionary War, and giving me 10% of their money on that basis.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:31 am
by _J Green
Fence Sitter wrote:Jeff,
How would you distinguish your method of choosing indicators from the way the Westburo Baptist Church members choose theirs? (In case you are unaware, they have issued the following statement regarding the tornadoes yesterday.)
Amazing work of God! He promised this gift for a rebel nation! Jeremiah 23:19.
Hi, Fence Sitter.
The J stands for Joseph, or Joey to my friends.
What little I know of this organization I despise, so I would hope there are differences in how we choose indicators. But since I really don't know anything about their method, I can't begin to say how I would distinguish mine from theirs.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:32 am
by _J Green
Darth J wrote:I see. So some people might find beautiful, beautiful chords in their life by accepting as historical fact that the Americans rode dinosaurs into battle against the Assyrians in the Revolutionary War, and giving me 10% of their money on that basis.
If that's how you choose to read my comments, then sure.
Cheers
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:00 am
by _Doctor Scratch
It's always interesting to see which threads wind up luring J Green out of hiding. What I find especially striking about his remarks here--e.g., his comment about "chords" and the "thin slicing" he chooses to focus upon--are their similarity to views expressed by John Dehlin. Dehlin's emphasis on peace, getting along, focusing on the positives, finding resonance among like-minded folks, and so on, seem quite similar to the views J Green has expressed on this thread. Does that therefore mean that Dehlin's views on Mormonism are valid in the same way as J Green's? And what about the "thin slicing" of someone like Rodney Meldrum? It's an intriguing thought, in any case.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:26 am
by _Themis
J Green wrote:
In that light, I'm intrigued by the "thin-slicing" here, with several individuals offering their own key indicators. And forums like this provide an opportunity for people to share these indicators and receive a form of validation that allows them to put together a larger picture about the subject. So I'm intrigued by your indicators, when my own indicators as a believer would cluster around spiritual experiences such as answers to prayer, as well as both intellectual and spiritual connections to the Book of Mormon and other texts. My indicators would include the spiritual feeding attendant to making covenants in the temple, ordaining my son to the Melchizedek priesthood, etc. So my "thin-slicing" is different. And it would make for a good discussion to find out why individuals focus on the indicators they do.
Many members learn by experience over time that the spiritual indicators you bring up that the church wants us to focus on are not really reliable indicators on important questions of did Joseph see God or did he make up his religion. We also may start to wonder if these indicators are used by others to come to very different conclusions, or whether they are free from production of the body or natural environment.
And Yes, I also realize that my thin-slicing cuts against the grain here. But I would argue that the key indicators for most believers (especially what Shades would call Chapel Mormons) would be fairly similar to this. And I would also point out that most of them wouldn't really understand the indicators you laid out.
Many members are not really interested in some of the core truth claims of the church. They are perfectly happy just living their life within the LDS community.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:11 am
by _J Green
Doctor Scratch wrote:It's always interesting to see which threads wind up luring J Green out of hiding.
Now I have this image of that Far Side cartoon with Elvis and Salman Rushdie in hiding, peeking out the motel window.
And speaking of luring others out, I'm always interested in how many posts of mine it takes to catch your eye. A little like Lizzie trying to avoid Darcy's attention at the Netherfield ball only to wind up dancing with him anyway. But like them, I think we've finally reached that "beautiful chord" phase of discovering that we both have a lot in common, like our posting commitment to peace, getting along, focusing on the positives, and finding resonance among like-minded folks.
Cheers, Scratch!
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:18 am
by _J Green
Themis wrote:
Many members learn by experience over time that the spiritual indicators you bring up that the church wants us to focus on are not really reliable indicators on important questions of did Joseph see God or did he make up his religion. We also may start to wonder if these indicators are used by others to come to very different conclusions, or whether they are free from production of the body or natural environment.
Many members are not really interested in some of the core truth claims of the church. They are perfectly happy just living their life within the LDS community.
Not much to disagree with here, Themis. I too have known members who have changed how they have viewed these indicators over time. My intent was simply to offer a singular differing perspective among the others that concurred with the OP. I imagined that I would quickly share my perspective and then get back to that motel room with Elvis and Rushdie. I didn't propose to completely change the trajectory of Chris' thread. And for that I apologize to Chris.
Regards
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:58 am
by _Themis
J Green wrote:
Not much to disagree with here, Themis. I too have known members who have changed how they have viewed these indicators over time. My intent was simply to offer a singular differing perspective among the others that concurred with the OP. I imagined that I would quickly share my perspective and then get back to that motel room with Elvis and Rushdie. I didn't propose to completely change the trajectory of Chris' thread. And for that I apologize to Chris.
Regards
I thought it was related to the OP. The only difference is that your indicators are not reliable in answering the question of whether the church core truths claims are actually true. I like his example with heart attacks where they can look at 3 or 4 indicators that have high reliability and ignore the others ones that have little or no reliability. In regards to the church spirituality indicators would be the ones you ignore due to having little to no reliability.
Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:41 am
by _Doctor Scratch
There's an instructive lesson here for students of Mopologetics: comparisons of your logic vis-a-vis your faith to people claiming to have been anally probed by aliens is acceptable; comparisons with John Dehlin and Rodney Meldrum, on the other hand, results in off-topic Jane Austen and Far Side allusions. Live and learn.