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Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:23 pm
by _Themis
honorentheos wrote:
There is some irony in how this thread has devolved into arguments for radical materialism or metaphysical naturalism given that the OP is founded on a piece from the book Blink that makes the case our minds work best when they both consciously process information and rely on intuition.


I am all for intuition in our decision making, but not at the expense of facts that are in conflict with intuition. Is intuition reliable enough to follow it if physical evidence is in conflict with what we think our intuition is saying? A couple of keithb examples are extreme but they do happen all the time.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:33 pm
by _J Green
Keithb,

I would concur with Honor that these scenarios are a little extreme. Fence Sitter may be right that some are using this as a hammer for bigotry, but I would hope that it isn't too prevelant. But I appreciate your follow-up quesitons because it does highlight that I haven't really explained the entire context of what I see. A few thoughts before I get to your scenarios:

1. Subjectivity. If we assume the existence of a God and the ability to communicate with him or her, then there are likely both objective and subjective results from these communication experiences. Some truths are based on appropriateness of time and place during our individual journeys to the Tree of Life. E.g., truth may usually reflect God’s desire for us not to take human life, but for my men in harm’s way on the Pakistani border, it may be an appropriate time to move the selector switch off Safety. There is also the need for God to prepare events from multiple perspectives. In Jerusalem on the eve of destruction, there were many prophets receiving revelation as to how to react. Some were asked to stay and go down with the ship. Others went into exile in Babylon, while Jeremiah winds up in Egypt, and Lehi is asked to leave for a new Promised Land. Roughly the same set of circumstances, different answers in revelation. In another example, President Faust has stated the view in his biography that the brethren believe that God would want good Latter-day Saints in both major US political parties. I believe God would communicate that desire to those who ask in faith, resulting in what may appear to be contradictory or subjective sets of revelation. (Don’t tell Droopy!) In a similar vein, I also believe God will inspire good men and women to join other faith systems if that is appropriate for that time and place in their journey. In another example, I believe Martin Luther King, Jr. was prepared by God. Oddly enough, I also believe that he wouldn’t have been positioned for success as a member of the LDS church during the civil rights era. I think he was inspired to become a pastor. And if he had asked in prayer at some point if he should have joined the LDS Church, I could see the answer being no. I don’t judge others for where they think they should be based on revelation. I simply hope I am where I’m supposed to be.

2. Assumptions. One issue that can cloud our perception of what is revealed and what isn’t are the natural assumptions we bring to the table. If I am leaving for work and feel inspired to bring my son with me that day, I might start making assumptions about why I was inspired to do so. Was it because of something that would have happened had he stayed at home? Was it because I just needed to spend more time with him? I would naturally start making assumptions about why I felt inspired to take this action. But this is really guess work and may or may not be the real reason. The assumptions are not part of the revelation but may influence how I interpret the revelation. Baggage.

3. Objectivity and validation. While some revelation is subjective and tailored to us individually, and I also bring to the table natural assumptions about revelation, if communication is reliable at all, then there has to be a way to sort through it. I think the pattern is shown in D&C with Joseph returning over and over again asking clarification about previous revelation both to himself and to others (scriptural passages). And so I frequently return and seek clarification. Another way to find clarification is to work in groups. We do this in bishoprics and presidencies and High Priest groups all the time. And we do it with our spouses. In simply my personal experience, it is very rare for us in these instances to believe we have received different guidance on the same subject, but even those few times are great learning experiences to work through. And we many times have experiences where a group-setting coincidence is unlikely. For example, while in one bishopric, the bishop and I (as first councilor) had pretty much decided on a scout position simply through what seemed like common sense. The person wanted to be there, his son was in that group, and he had over twenty years of experience with this sort of thing. We agreed to pray about it separately that night for confirmation (which we both expected) and to meet again the next day. Unexpectedly, we both felt prompted in separate prayers not to call him but to call a sister who had no experience in scouting and no connection to the kids in the group. And moving the sister from her current position would be difficult. It didn’t follow the path that we expected, but we both felt prompted about it. So we met and prayed together and both felt very strongly that it was the right thing to do. When we called her, she said she had also felt prompted about the calling, which would have been unexpected or unlikely in her position. I've had similar experiences with my wife over issues with kids, etc.

So to answer your specific scenarios, I would say that in most of these I would simply ask for validation myself for the claims presented to me. If I felt that they were wrong (which I probably would in these extreme scenarios presented), then I would discuss it with my mother and daughter, etc. and see if we could pray about it together or go back separately for clarification. I have some experience with this from the few instances it happened in Church presidencies and the one time in twenty years of marriage where my wife and I thought we had received different guidance for the same issue. Just I was able to resolve this in these instances through discussing it, talking about our assumptions and then going back for clarification, I would argue that I could do it in the scenarios presented as well. Although there might not be enough time in the case of my neighbor. I might have to call 911 before I ptay about it. :wink:

Cheers.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:36 pm
by _J Green
Sethbag wrote:
J Green wrote:Well, proof of the reliability of direct communication with an alleged God lies in attempting direct communication with said God, right? Is there some other way that you would have me demonstrate the claim? Perhaps I don't understand what you are asking.

If two people attempt direct communication with an alleged God, and report two completely different, and contradictory, results, is there any basis for you as a third party to decide that the means they employed was reliable? For that matter, is there any basis you could articulate that would justify those two people in believing for themselves whether their direct communication method is reliable?


Hi, Sethbag. Great to talk to you again. The answer I would give to your question is to a certain extent, yes. As I've worked through exactly these issues a few times before, I would first pray about it myself. Then I would attempt to talk to each of them individually, look at our common assumptions about what revelation we felt we had received, and then I would ask if we could pray about it together. But ultimately, this is simply my perspective. If one or both of the individuals disagreed with my methodology or proposed method of solving the problem, then there would not be a reliable way forward.

Cheers.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:37 pm
by _J Green
honorentheos wrote:Hi J Green,

Unrelated to the topic of the OP, I wished to compliment you on your poise in the thread. It's nice to see you visiting us again.


That means quite a bit more than you might assume, Honor. You're a good man.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:38 pm
by _J Green
Nevo wrote:
honorentheos wrote:Hi J Green,

Unrelated to the topic of the OP, I wished to compliment you on your poise in the thread. It's nice to see you visiting us again.

Seconded. J Green is a class act. One of my favorite posters. (Well, actually my favorite.) May his tribe increase!


Thanks, Nevo and Bob. Much appreciated.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:43 pm
by _Josh Seconal
J Green,

I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your military service!

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:44 pm
by _J Green
Darth J wrote:Did anyone ever explain why relying on subjective spiritual experiences to evaluate claims of objective fact is a method of epistemology that is valid for no other area of human experience except factual claims that are necessary to support the truth claims of the LDS Church?

And not just subjective spiritual experiences, but the LDS Church's self-serving ipse dixit as to what such experiences mean?

Oh, that's silly. Of course someone explained that. I should probably just re-read the thread.


Just to follow up on this a bit, Darth. Since I would argue that this epistomology is valid for other areas of human experience, I'm unsure what kind of answer I need to provide here. While I wouldn't use it in evaluating technical data in Intelligence work, I have used it in other military venues and other aspects of my life.

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:48 pm
by _J Green
Doctor Scratch wrote:Actually, no, Elder Green. I think you're at your best and most authentic when you're comparing posters to war veterans with PTSD. But your mileage may vary.


As I was driving into town this morning, I reflected a little on the conversation from last night, and I smiled at the pattern that has developed during our brief exchanges over the years where at some point you'll starting calling me Elder. And it reminded me of an amusing exchange from The Importance of Being Earnest:

JACK. Oh! one doesn't blurt these things out to people. Cecily and Gwendolen are perfectly certain to be extremely great friends. I'll bet you anything you like that half an hour after they have met, they will be calling each other sister.

ALGERNON. Women only do that when they have called each other a lot of other things first.


Cheers, brother Scratch!

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:57 pm
by _Nightlion
Oh, gee, how much J Green ignores Nightlion. Hmmm? Why would that be? Has he no defense? Is ignoring Nightlion his best defense? His only defense?

Re: Fallacy of Too Much Information

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:58 pm
by _CaliforniaKid
honorentheos wrote:There is some irony in how this thread has devolved into arguments for radical materialism or metaphysical naturalism given that the OP is founded on a piece from the book Blink that makes the case our minds work best when they both consciously process information and rely on intuition.

Blink is really an argument for what Gladwell calls "thin-slicing." Intuitive decision making is one example of thin-slicing, and Gladwell does argue for its usefulness. However, Gladwell also carefully qualifies this argument. "Thin-slicing" can also be done in a very conscious, deliberate way, as in the heart attack example I described in the OP. And even in cases where intuitive decision-making is useful, it can go horribly wrong if done incorrectly. It works best when bound by rules and informed by a lifetime of training. Careful, conscious deliberation is still required to formulate the rules and training regimens that produce effective intuitive deciders.

Consider a few of Gladwell's examples. There's a tennis expert who’s able to tell whether a tennis player is going to double-fault just as the player is beginning his swing. There are art historians who can tell a forgery in the first five seconds of looking at it. There are many professional athletes who make baskets or hit baseballs with almost zero reaction time. These are people who have spent their entire lives training their brains to make particular kinds of intuitive judgments in the most effective possible way. As for rules, consider the case of improv comedy teams. Practitioners of improv have an all-important rule: never stop the action or turn down another participant’s suggestion. In real life, Gladwell says, we’re very efficient action-stoppers, because this keeps us safe. When amateurs do improv, they tend to intuitively want to stop the action. But action-stopping makes for bad fiction, bad drama, and bad comedy. To be good at improv, you have to systematically train yourself to follow this rule.

Applying this to religion, then, it seems unlikely that intuitive judgments are going to be effective unless they're informed by some training in Religious Studies and in the recognized rules of good decision-making.

As a side-note, Gladwell also argues that the context of intuitive decision-making is important. It's very easy to "prime" someone to behave in a particular way. Use a few aggressive words in a conversation, and you can trigger aggression in your conversation partner. Imagine, then, the power of an environment that constantly reinforces Mormon truth claims and "primes" people to have certain kinds of spiritual experiences. The LDS community is not a context that's been constructed to encourage unbiased intuitive decision-making. Rather, it's a context that's been carefully crafted to bias intuitive decision-making in a particular direction.

ETA: By the way J Green, I too appreciate your reasonableness and civility in this discussion. It's all too rare on these boards.