City Creek - Get over IT

[_Bob Loblaw]

I beg your pardon, but I know how Church Welfare works.

Apparently you don't, because just a few minutes ago you were confidently assuring us that no one ever gets turned away from the church when they ask for help.

[_beanboots]

The homeless can choose not to be homeless. No one just becomes "homeless." People have family and friends and priesthood leaders. If they exhaust their resources because they're alcoholics/addicts, then that's their fault.

Sounds like someone needs to go back and re-read King Benjamin's discourse, particularly his words in Mosiah 4:16-26.

Yes, but consider Proverbs 29:18: "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he."

People shouldn't deliberately be digging holes into alcoholism or addiction. If they aren't doing it deliberately, they will seek help - and help they will receive. If the Spirit or the power of logic resolves upon a leader that a person should be helped and they are worthy of that help, then it is such that shall be given according to his need. I know I personally have helped and will continue to "pay it forward." It's our responsibility as individual Latter-day Saints to do that.

[_beanboots]

I beg your pardon, but I know how Church Welfare works.

Apparently you don't, because just a few minutes ago you were confidently assuring us that no one ever gets turned away from the church when they ask for help.

No person is ever turned away at Welfare Square. No member or non-member is ever turned away. There are additional circumstances in place to protect the financial integrity of the Church's finances. If that integrity is breached, the system is flawed. That's why analysis of personal finances and situations, on a case by case basis, are heavily valued.

[_Blixa]

Again. I want proof that anyone in Salt Lake has ever been turned away from Welfare Square.

Again. Anyone who would make such a hurtful, and ignorant statement about the homeless should be ashamed to call themselves a Christian / Mormon, but we all know that self awareness isn't exactly Mormonism's strong point. But if you really want specific examples, there was a wonderful story posted here a couple christmases ago about the church buying up an old motel and throwing everyone in it on the street. I'm sure if you're REALLY interested I could go back and find it for you, but we both know you aren't.

I think "troll" sums it up.

Thanks for destroying rather than "revitalizing" a historically rich and interesting down town area by building a freaking shopping mall, one of Satan's worst curses on humanity.

[_beanboots]

No problem -- the Brethren can just dispatch their security thugs to get rid of them, like they do with the Main Street Plaza.

Would you want drunk people or people who just sit around all day talking to themselves contributing nothing to society sitting on your front porch? What if they started insulting you and your beliefs?

[_Bazooka]

First of all, the Church's mission is three-fold. But I will briefly address all four of your concerns.

1. The Church can preach the gospel in Temple Square. Tourists will go for a stroll after they leave the mall.
2. The Saints will be perfected because employment opportunities are offered, they have the opportunity to buy gifts for their fellow men in the spirit of giving (perhaps to the homeless?), and they have the ability to appreciate the beauty of downtown Salt Lake.
3. The money from the mall will help to pay for genealogical research.
4. Individual Latter-Day Saints can help the poor and needy. The Church, with the money it gets from the mall, can help enhance and enrich its welfare programs.

1. The Church could preach the Gospel in Temple Square regardless of the new Mall. The cost of the mall, if meant as a proselytising investment is a ridiculously stupid and frivolous waste of the widows mite. How many people convert to Mormonism as a result of shopping in City Creek? That's right, nobody.
2. Actually, net employment is nil. The 'new' jobs at City Creek are offset by the jobs lost from the businesses closed to make way for the development or by those jobs that are removed from the economy because City Creek has jeopardised other parts of Salt Lake City. Members already had the opportunity to buy gifts for their fellow men. Downtown Salt Lake City is not beautiful, it is smog ridden.
3. The Mall ain't generating any money. The Presiding Bishopric explicitly stated that, as an investment, it wouldn't be a worthwhile venture as it won't generate returns worthy of mention.
4. I repeat, the Mall ain't generating any income.

McMullin explains that City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. “Will there be a return?” he asks rhetorically. “Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment—the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses.” Pausing briefly, he adds with deliberation, “It’s for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better.”

You really need to research your subject better before spouting off on here.

[_Bob Loblaw]

No person is ever turned away at Welfare Square. No member or non-member is ever turned away. There are additional circumstances in place to protect the financial integrity of the Church's finances. If that integrity is breached, the system is flawed. That's why analysis of personal finances and situations, on a case by case basis, are heavily valued.

But you said no bishop or stake president ever refuses to help those in need. I gave you two examples just from my family.

[_beanboots]

I think "troll" sums it up.

Thanks for destroying rather than "revitalizing" a historically rich and interesting down town area by building a freaking shopping mall, one of Satan's worst curses on humanity.

Downtown was revitalized. It was reinvigorated. The Church rolled up its sleeves and got to work on protecting the front door of the Church. Sorry if you're a hipster who shops at thrift stores (like the DI), but some people also enjoy shopping at the Gap and/or Brooks Brothers.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Would you want drunk people or people who just sit around all day talking to themselves contributing nothing to society sitting on your front porch? What if they started insulting you and your beliefs?

Yeah, Jesus would have been mortified to be seen with sinners and the poor.

[_Bazooka]

Would you want people who just sit around all day talking to themselves contributing nothing to society sitting on your front porch? What if they started insulting you and your beliefs?

You mean missionaries?