Blixa wrote:That's a great illustration of Givens' distortions of Roberts, Rollo. Thanks.
But perhaps a scholar is only a scholar when speaking as such and Givens doesn't hold his Fireside/apologetic work on that level of "sophistication." Like Kishkumen said, By the Hand of Mormon, is not at the same level as Viper on the Hearth. It strikes me now that Givens may consciously pitch his argument for his audience. And I guess that shouldn't strike me as strange at all...
Blixa, how much do you think Givens is influenced by the late Eugene England?
Blixa wrote:That's a great illustration of Givens' distortions of Roberts, Rollo. Thanks.
But perhaps a scholar is only a scholar when speaking as such and Givens doesn't hold his Fireside/apologetic work on that level of "sophistication." Like Kishkumen said, By the Hand of Mormon, is not at the same level as Viper on the Hearth. It strikes me now that Givens may consciously pitch his argument for his audience. And I guess that shouldn't strike me as strange at all...
Blixa, how much do you think Givens is influenced by the late Eugene England?
I can't say as I've never given it much thought. I'd have to dip back into both to give a useful answer and I can't do that at the moment.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Maksutov wrote:It mystifies me that Givens receives so much respect. He's repackaging Mormonism, just like Joanna Brooks, Richard and Linda Eyre, etc, sugar coating the blue pill. These people are "spiritual entrepreneurs". They aren't scholars. They aren't deep thinkers who've explored unknown areas of Mormonism or other human experience. Far from it. They are there to find you reasons to believe what you already wanted to believe and feel good about it.
Well, Givens has done good scholarship, so I don't think he deserves no credit for that. But he has taken a turn toward advocacy of Mormonism in a way that is learned, but not scholarly in the sense I endorse.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Studies of the Book of Mormon was the very first of many books I read that eventually led me out of the church. I hold it dear to my heart. I can't thank BH Roberts enough for his honest approuch to Mormon studies...in my humble opinion he was willing to sacrifice faith if it led to truth.
Does any know if Givens was asked to go to England by the CAB to help salavgewhat he can of the British branch of the church...which has been devistated by mass apostacy? If so by what authority and why not send in the GA's
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace
"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick
“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
Maksutov wrote:I still retain a great deal of respect for B. H. Roberts and James Talmage. They were earnest men who really valued truth. They tried to lift their people up, and showed great courage while trying to preserve their culture. It was difficult then and more so now. I don't feel confident that their like exists now.
If they did exist, they'd probably wind up being ostracized, if not excommunicated. So it may be just as well.
When you have a moment, here's England's essay on The Weeping God of Mormonism. The Givens' have just come out with a book on the God Who Weeps. http://www.smpt.org/docs/england_element1-1.html It's a consideration of theodicy in Mormonism and much besides.
I met England at a Young Democrats meeting, rather liked him. He listened. I didn't stay in touch with him or his life afterwards. I've always considered BRM's letter to him to be required reading for deniers of spiritual abuse.
Craig Paxton wrote:Studies of the Book of Mormon was the very first of many books I read that eventually led me out of the church. I hold it dear to my heart. I can't thank BH Roberts enough for his honest approuch to Mormon studies...in my humble opinion he was willing to sacrifice faith if it led to truth.
Whatever you do, keep that filthy nasty BH Roberts book away from Kish's kids.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Maksutov wrote:I still retain a great deal of respect for B. H. Roberts and James Talmage. They were earnest men who really valued truth. They tried to lift their people up, and showed great courage while trying to preserve their culture. It was difficult then and more so now. I don't feel confident that their like exists now.
