Robert Ritner's Decimation of Mormon Egyptology

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[_Kishkumen]

I didn't see where anyone ruled out Joseph Smith having false beliefs initially that he embellished, developed and spread through means including deception? I don't think anyone here is claiming definitively that Joseph Smith did not believe anything that he was claiming.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "false beliefs" and why are you concerned about them?

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[_Themis]

I think the line is too fuzzy with Joseph Smith too. We know at certain points he engaged in deception, but it's impossible to say how much he believed what he was claiming or didn't when he was doing so and how that may have changed over time. Still, it isn't really necessary to know because the evidence available shows that what he was claiming, in the majority of cases was factually incorrect. I don't think anyone should be afraid to come to that conclusion even if it is interesting to speculate about the amount he believed the lies he was spreading. Attempting to understand what was going through his head is fascinating, but we will likely never know and that's fine by me.

Thanks,

Hasa Diga Eebowai

I always thought Joseph probably had some religious experiences, and had beliefs that were probably common in his day. Many believed native Americans were of Israelite descent, so I see it as plausible that he did as well and used this belief to come up with the Book of Mormon and promote Christian beliefs he and others held. I see it also plausible he did the same with the papyri to add new beliefs he was forming over time.

[_Themis]

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "false beliefs" and why are you concerned about them?

I think everyone should be concerned with false beliefs. Some may not do much if any harm, so we may not worry about it to much. Others, and I would include some from Joseph, can be more harmful, and society would be better off without them. I probably have some I could do without.

[_SteelHead]

Are any religious beliefs true?

[_Themis]

Are any religious beliefs true?

Not sure if any of the objective ones are, but many of the subjective ones would be like stealing is bad.

[_Chap]

I'd like to know what characteristics an experience has to have in order for it to count as a 'genuine religious experience'.

And later ...

I'll answer your question if you answer mine, what do you mean by a "genuine religious experience"?

So a small queue is forming ...

Since people are talking in terms of whether Joseph Smith had a 'religious experience', it would be really good to have that term explained.

If all the people in the discussion were believers in an Abrahamic religion (one of Judaism, Christianity or Islam), then some answer such as 'an experience involving contact with God' might do. But since some of us are plain atheists (or else theists who want to draw boundaries between scholarship and theology, such as Kishkumen), what do we do? Maybe the only 'scholarly' answer to the question would be in terms such as 'an experience to which the person recounting it ascribes a religious value'.

But then that would essentially mean that we can say that Joseph Smith had a religious experience because ... well, in effect, Joseph Smith told us he had a religious experience. Somehow that seems to empty the term 'religious experience' of significance. Perhaps it won't do as a 'scholarly' term after all, and will only work in a community consisting wholly of theists - which is not what this board is, by any means.