NO Mormons are not Christian!

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Sorry Jason ..... I am aiming for the "Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah" conversion package (tm. all rights reserved).

Besides, Exu tells me Christianity is just a bad myth he started on a dare from Yemanja.

L. Ron Hubbard said he got a sneak peak at Heaven when he had an out of body experience while getting a wisdom tooth removed. He said Heaven was an OK place overall but very overrated.

[_maklelan]

Maklelan....it's your choice not to believe in the accuracy of the Bible...no amount of convincing will change that. Personally I believe in A GOD that is fully capable and able to convey the spiritual information he wants us to understand and as accurately as is necessary to insure his WORD it available to mankind. Now you can get stuck on talking donkeys and such if you like. Frankly with some of the weird paranormal stuff going on around us I don't find anything that surprising ....

Is the Bible Historically Accurate?

By Daniel R. Vess

I will be happy to respond to this point by point, but I expect my concerns to be engaged. In the past these drive-by cut and pastes have ended with me taking a lot of time to put together a post that gets ignored in favor of another drive-by cut and paste. If my concerns go unanswered, I will not be participating anymore. I hope you can understand my concern.

Throughout the years critics have attacked the Bible because it was filled with historical blunders. They viewed it as fictional and highly imaginative. At one time the records of secular history didn't mention some 47 kings found in the Bible.
If the book is inspired of God we can expect it to be historically correct.

An assumption with which I do not agree.

If the Bible is not accurate historically then is accurate concerning spiritual matters? This lesson will forcible demonstrate that the historical record of history and the Bible record are very compatible.
The Bible is not a history book. Nonetheless, whenever God's Word incidentally touches on any aspect of history it is always accurate. "Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of history." (William F. Albright, Archaeology and the Religions of Israel, pp. 127,128).

And W. F. Albright's positivism has been entirely overturned in the last 75 years of biblical scholarship as new discoveries and methodological developments have shown it to be false.

Merrill Unger wrote, "Old Testament archaeology has rediscovered whole nations, resurrected important peoples, and in a most astonishing manner filled in historical gaps, adding immeasurably to the knowledge of Biblical backgrounds." (Unger's Bible Dictionary, p. 15).
"Archeology is a real help in understanding the Bible. It yields fascinating information which illustrates what might otherwise be obscured, and in some instances confirms what some might otherwise regard as doubtful." (Paul E. Little, Know Why You Believe, p. 88).
Archaeology has in many cases refuted the views of modern critics. More than 25,000 sites showing some connection with the Old Testament period have been located in Bible lands.

Showing some connection with the Old Testament period has no bearing whatsoever on the historicity of the account within the Old Testament.

Dr. Robert Dick Wilson, former professor of Semitic philology at Princeton Theological Seminary, said, "After forty-five years of scholarly research in Biblical textual studies and in language study. I have come now to the conviction that no man knows enough to assail the truthfulness of the Old Testament. Where there is sufficient documentary evidence to make an investigation, the statements of the Bible, in the original text, have stood the test." Furthermore, the noted Dr. J.O. Kinnaman said, "of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by other archaeologists, not one has ever been discovered that contradicts or denies one word, phrase, clause, or sentence of the Bible, but always confirms and verifies the facts of the Biblical record." If one discards the Bible as being unreliable, then he must discard almost all literature of antiquity.

A ludicrous and demonstrably false assertion.

PERIOD OF THE PATRIARCHS

Babylonian and Assyrian accounts of creation
These accounts are grossly polytheistic. Here are some translated phrases: "Seven tablets of creation", "chaos of water" called "the deep", "made the upper and lower firmaments", "established the heavens and the earth", on the sixth day "formed man out of the dust of the ground." The "seventh day" was appointed a "holy day", and "to cease from all business commanded".

Babylonian traditions of the fall of man
Many references are found with regard to the "tree of life".
The Story of Adapa contains many striking parallels: "Adapa, the seed of mankind" - "the wise man of Eridu" - "blameless" then he "offended the gods" - "through knowledge" - then he "became mortal" - "food of life he ate not" - the gods said, "he shall not rest" - "they clothed him with a morning garment". The Temptation Seal is an even closer parallel to the Biblical account: "in the center is the tree; on the right, a Man on the left a Woman, plucking fruit;" and behind her is a serpent standing erect.

Which is all evidence that the biblical text simply draws literary imagery from other earlier texts. Look deeper in those Babylonian accounts and you will find quite serious disparity with the Bible.

Primeval Longevity
Methuselah lived 969 years; Jared, 962 years; Noah, 950 years and Adam 930 years. Berosus, a Babylonian historian of 300 B.C. used tablets he found in the Babylon. The names of ten pre-flood kings each reigning from 10,000 to 60,000 years. It concludes with: "in the time of Xisuthros, the Great Deluge occurred." The Weld Prism and Nippur Tablets name the ten Kings in a different language and a different type of chronology and calendar. Then it states, "Then the Flood overthrew the land."

And none of the data within the different traditions line up at all.

Evidence of the Flood
The flood tablets were written between the flood and Abraham, found in Ur. They repeat expressions such as: "The flood"; "the age before the flood", and "inscriptions of the time before the flood."

They also tell an entirely different story. The existence of flood traditions is nothing special. Almost all civilizations in antiquity had them, usually reflecting the view of annual localized flooding as rejuvenating the land.

Gilgamesh Epic
Gilgamesh was 5th King of the Erech Dynasty. He went to see Utnapishtim, the Babylonian Noah.

Who was made a god for saving people from the flood. The stories are wildly different.

Utnapishtim relates to him the story of the flood. "The assembly of the gods decided to send a Deluge. They said, On the sinner let his sin rest. O man of Shuruppak, build a ship, save your life. Construct it with six stories, each with seven parts. Smear it with bitumen inside and outside. Launch it upon the ocean. Take into the ship seed of life of every kind. I built it. With all that I had I loaded it, and with silver, gold, and all living things that I had. I embarked upon the ship with my family and kindred. I closed the door. The appointed time arrived. I observed the appearance of the day. It was terrible. All light was turned to darkness. The rains poured down. The storm raged; like a battle charge on mankind. The boat trembled. The gods wept. I looked out upon the sea. All mankind was turned to clay, like logs floating about. The tempest ceased. The flood was over. The ship grounded on Mt Zaair. On the seventh day I sent out a dove; it returned. I sent out a swallow; it returned. I sent out a raven, it alighted, it waded about; it croaked; it did not return. I disembarked. I appointed a sacrifice. The gods smelled the sweet savor. They said, Let it be done no more." (Halley's Bible Handbook, pp. 76,77). This visit was quite possible considering that Noah lived 350 years after the flood and died only two years before the birth of his tenth generation, Abraham.

Appealing to the epic of Gilgamesh is hardly evidence of the historicity of the Noah tradition.

Excavation of pre-flood cities
The cities of Ur, Kish and Nineveh all existed before and after the flood, but the comparison doesn't stop there. An expedition to the ancient site of Ur in 1929 led by Dr. C.L. Woolley found "underneath several strata of human occupation, a great bed of solid water-laid clay eight feet thick without admixture of human relic, with yet the ruins of another city buried beneath it." The pre-flood civilization was found to be so different that Woolley said it represented "a sudden and terrific break in the continuity of history."
At the cite of Kish, Dr. Stephen Landon found a water-laid bed of clay five feet thick. The relics found in the pre-flood strata were of a different culture containing four-wheeled chariots, wheels of wood, and copper nails. Nineveh, also had a water laid bed of clay eight feet thick.

These are indicative of nothing more than a localized flood, which unsurprisingly happened frequently in a low-lying land between two massive rivers.

The Hittite Nations
Forty-six times the Hittites are mentioned in the Bible (Joshua 3:10). No mention is made of them in secular history. Before the 20th century, many said this was a fictitious empire. A.A. Sayce suggested that he found Hittite writings in Syria. Hugo Winckler excavated Boghazkoy, the Hittite capital, in 1906. Over 10,000 tests were found. Now you can graduate with a doctorate degree in Hittitolgy at the University of Pennsylvania.

And not a single one of those doctorates will pretend the Hittite nations are evidence of anything related to the Bible's historicity.

Cities visited by Abraham
Shechem, Bethel, Haran, and Gerar have all been excavated and proven to be in existence at Abraham's time. Even his home town of Ur has been discovered and excavated.

No, a site has been asserted to be Ur. There are other candidates for the ancient city of Ur, you know.

An abundance of evidence surfaced to disprove the notion that Abraham's era was one of ignorance. Found were receipts for business transactions; temple hymns; others were mathematical tables with formulae for calculating square and cube roots as well as simpler sums. All these were strangely contemporary. According to Millar Burrows "...his name appears in Babylonia as a personal name in the very period to which be belongs." (What Mean These Stones?, p.259).

This isn't relevant.

Seven years' famine
Sir Flinders Petrie in 1912 confirmed great granaries and Joseph's Palace. An Egyptian named Baba claims to have done for his city what the Bible said Joseph did for all Egypt (Gen. 41:47-57). Baba: "I collected corn, as a friend of the harvest god. And when a famine arose, lasting many years, I distributed corn to the city, each year of the famine."

There is nothing noteworthy about saving grain against possible famine. All cultures did it at one point or another.

EARLY ISRAELITE PERIOD

Bricks of Pithon
Expeditions of Pithon in 1908 found the bricks of the lower courses were filled with good chopped straw; the middle with stubble that had been plucked up by the root; that the upper courses were of pure clay.

I'd like a reference for this.

Development of groups of Canaan
The Amorites came in 2,200 B.C. and were well established by the time of the wilderness wanderings (Num. 13:29). Philistines moved in about that time. Pottery from Rhodes and Cyprus found on a bed of ash. Invasion pushed the tribe of Dan north.

No, Philistines are quite securely dated to around 1200 BCE and absolutely no earlier. They were a segment of the Sea Peoples who moved from the Aegean down the coast of Syria-Palestine to Egypt in 1200 BCE. There were absolutely no Philistines anywhere near Syria-Palestine prior to 1200 BCE. Any suggestion to the contrary is not based on archaeology at all. See here, here, here, etc.

Joshua
The Amarna Tablet to Pharaoh asked concerning a safe route for King Pella. "Ask Benjamin, Ask Tadua, Ask Joshua." Thus confirming the identity of a Hebrew in a position of authority. Only Joshua the leader of the Israelites.

That's not what EA 256 says at all. The names are actually Ben-Elima (son of the gods; nothing at all to do with Benjamin [son of the right hand]), Tadua, and Yishua (or Jasuia). Since these letters date to the 14th century, they couldn't possibly be Joshua. The only possible chronological context for his existence is the 12th century. Additionally, the name is not unique to Hebrew or the Bible, so it proves nothing at all. Also, it wasn't King Pella, it was king Mutbaal, who ruled at Pella.

The Fall of Jericho
Jericho was excavated by Dr. John Garstang between 1930 and 1936. He found that the great wall was 12' think and the outer wall 12' thick both being thirty feet high, fell "down flat". "As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely that the attackers would be able to clamber up land over their ruins into the city." (The Foundations of Bible History; Joshua, Judges, p. 146). Walls normally fall inward. "So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city (6:20).
Joshua chapter six and verse twenty-four says, "They burnt the city with fire". Garstang found charcoal and ash and pockets of white ash. God commanded them to "keep yourselves form the devoted thing" (6:18). Again, Garstang found storerooms full of food turned to charcoal by fire.

That's a remarkably outdated opinion. I would refer you to the much, much better and much more recent reports of Kathleen Kenyon that show that Jericho wasn't even inhabited at the time of the putative conquest. The destruction layer dates to the 16th century BCE.

Conquest of Canaan
Joshua "burnt Hazor with fire" (11:11). Once more the archeologist's finds confirmed this with ashes with burnt pottery of 1400 B.C.

Actually the destruction layer dates to the mid-13th century BCE.

About 1380 B.C. an Amarna Tablet from an Egyptian envoy in northern Palestine written to Pharaoh for help: "Let my Lord the King recall what Hazor and its king have already had to endure."

Yes, many of the cities mentioned in the Amarna correspondence were complaining of raids and attacks by bands of nomads. This isn't evidence at all of the conquest.

THE PERIOD OF THE UNITED KINGDOM

David captured the Jebusite city
Kathleen Kenyon between 1961-1967 found the Jebusite walls. Captain Charles Warren found the water shaft through which Joab climbed to gain entrance to the city (2 Samuel 5:6-8).

You're referring to a single wall, previously called the "Jebusite wall" based only on the assumption that it reflected the Jebusite inhabitation mentioned in the Bible. It's now universally acknowledged that there's no indication it had anything to do with Jebusites, and it is now called the Stepped Stone Structure. The date of the wall is debated in the scholarship.

Solomon's Kingdom
It has been found that Solomon used the same architectural design for the gate ways of Hazor, Gezer and Megiddo (I Kings 9:15). Larger stables for up to 500 horses were found at Megiddo (I Kings 9:15,18).

That's not true at all. That notion dates to the 30s and has been thoroughly undermined by further excavation and research.

The defeat of the Philistines opened the way for trade on the Philistine coast which helped in getting in the material for building the Temple. An excavation of Ezion-Geber found a blast furnace supporting the claim of Solomon's casting of metals. "The finest and largest smelting and refining plant ever discovered in the ancient Near East has been unearthed at the northwest corner of the site. It was provided with a complicated system of flues and air channels almost modern in aspect and function." (Nelson Glueck, "Ezion-"Geber," Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, Oct., 1939, p. 10).

]

You're still relying on research dating to an uncritical time in biblical archaeology.

THE PERIOD OF THE DIVIDED KINGDOM

Ahab, King of Israel
Shalmaneser (860-825 B.C.) mentions Ahab: "I destroyed -- 2,000 chariots and 10,000 men of Ahab King of Israel."
Ahab's house of Ivory has been discovered (I Kings 22:39). A Harvard University expedition found the ruins of this house. Its walls had been faced with ivory. This same expedition (1931-35) also found in the palace courtyard an open cistern or pool measuring thirty- two and a half feet by seventeen feet; perhaps the one use to wash down Ahab's blood stained chariot (I Kings 22:38).
Jezebel "painted her eyes" (2 Kings 9:30). In the ruins of Ahab's ivory house was found saucers, small stone boxes. They contained traces of: kohl for black; turquoise for green; ochre for red, and a central depression for mixing.

Moabite Stone
Following the death of Ahab, Moab rebelled against Israelite domination (Kings 3:1-4). The Moabite stone made in Moab in 850 B.C. was discovered by Klein in 1868. It is now at the Louvre in Paris. "I, Mesha, King of Moab, made this monument to Chemosh, to commemorate deliverance from Israel. My father reigned over. Moab 30 years, and I reigned after my father. Omri, King of Israel, oppressed Moab many days, and his son after him. But I warred against the king of Israel, and drove him out and took his cities..." (Halley, 202).

Hazael, King of Syria
Hazael overthrew the dynasty of Ben-hadad (2 Kings 8:7-15). An inscription of Shalmaneasar King of Assyria says: "I fought with Ben-Hadad. I accomplished his defeat. Hazael, son of a nobody, seized his throne."

Jehu, King of Israel
Layard found the "Black Obelisk" of Shalmaneser III; a block of black stone seven feet tall. At the top it shows Jehu bowing and paying tribute. This is the only depiction of a historical personage of Israel. It says, "the tribute of Jehu son of Omri, silver, gold, bowls of gold, chalices of gold, cups of gold, vases of gold, lead, scepter for the king, and spear-shafts, I have received." Jehu is the only king of Israel to be physically pictured on an archaeological discovery.

Sargon, King of Assyria
In Isaiah 20:1 it reads, "In the year that Tartan came to Ashdod, when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him, and he fought against Ashdod and took it." Secular records contained no mention of this monarch of Assyria. However in 1843 Emile Botta discovered the palace of Sargon at Khorsabad. The information uncovered indicated Sargon to be one of Assyria's greatest kings. A inscription further confirms the Biblical record: "Azuri, king of Ashdod, planned in his heart not to pay tribute. In my anger I marched against Ashdod with my usual bodyguard. I conquered Ashdod, and Gath. I took their treasures and their people. I settled in them people from the lands of the east. I took tribute from Philistia, Judah, Edom and Moab." (Halley, 288).

Sennacherib's Invasion of Judah
A monument called the Prism of Sennacherib found in Nineveh has contains a record of his conquest of Judah (701 B.C.) "As for Hezekiah the Judahite, he did not submit to my yoke. I laid siege to forty-six of the his strong cities, walled forts, and to countless villages in their vicinity, and conquered them..I drove out over 200,000 people...Hezekiah himself I made prisoner in Jerusalem, his royal residence, like a bird in a cage." Although there is no evidence in this record explaining his failure to capture Jerusalem or the destruction of his army.
Isaiah mocked Sennacherib in saying, "I will put my hook in your nose and my bit in your mouth..." (37:29), which is compatible with existing practices of those times.

Babylonian Destruction of Judea
A Babylonian Chronicle read by Dr. Wiseman in 1955 describes in brief detail of Nebuchadnezzar's military campaign against Judea. It gives the exact date of the capture of Jerusalem as March 16, 597 B.C.

Return from Captivity under Cyrus
Ezra begins his book with the proclamation of the Medo-Persian Cyrus. "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel (He is God), which is in Jerusalem. And whoever is left in any place where he dwells, let the men of his place help him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, besides the freewill offerings for the house of God which is in Jerusalem." (1:1-4). A parallel account is record on the clay cylinder of Cyrus (538 B.C.).

As I stated, after the times of David and Solomon the biblical record roughly reflects the known historical narratives.

THE NEW TESTAMENT PERIOD

Luke the Historian
One of the most renown archaeologist of all time, Sir William Ramsay said, "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy..this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." (The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament, p. 222). "Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness." (St. Paul the traveler and the Roman Citizen, p. 81).
Much of Luke's account of Jesus' birth has fallen under attack (Luke 3:1-3). However, archaeological discoveries prove that Romans did take censuses every fourteen years.

That's not true at all. I'd be happy to look at a reference if you have one, though.

Based on an inscription found in Antioch it was shown that Quirinius was governor of Syria in 6 A.D.

And that's around the time a census was taken. Of course, Herod died in 4 B.C.E. Problem.

A papyrus found in Egypt gives directions for the conduct of a census. "Because of the approaching census it is necessary that all those residing for any cause away from their homes should at once prepare to return to their own governments in order that they may complete the family registration of the enrollment and that the tilled lands may retain those belonging to them." 29/285.
Luke informs us that Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene when John the Baptist began his ministry. Secular history only knew of a King Lysanias, who was executed at Cleopatra's instigation in 36 B.C.. However, recently an inscription found at Abila near Damascus records a dedication to Nymphaeus, "freeman of Lysanias, the tetrarch" around the very time indicated by Luke. (F.F. Bruce, "Archaeological Confirmation of the New Testament, p. 327).

Pontius Pilate
An inscription bearing he name of Pontius Pilate. A stone slab was uncovered in the Roman theater at Caesarea with the Latin words "Pointius Pilatus" and "Tiverius" in 1961.

Evidence from Corinth
Paul's epistle to the Romans was written in Corinth. He mentions a citizen of that city, Erastus, in Rom. 16:23. An ancient pavement was found in 1929 at Corinth said, "Erastus, curator of public buildings, laid this pavement at his own expense."
An inscription, "Synagogue of the Hebrews" dates from the time of Paul (Acts 18:4). Delphi inscription shows Gallio came to Corinth as proconsul in 51 A.D. (18:12). A Delphi inscription which states: "As Lucius Janius Gallio, my friend, and the Proconsul of Achaia..." (Howard Vos, Can I Trust My Bible? p. 180). His judgement seat (bema) was excavated in the agora (market place). Also in the agora were shops called macellum (meat markets) and piscario (fish market). Paul correctly used makellum in I Cor. 10:25.

In Asia
Barnabas and Paul were called Zeus and Hermes respectively in Lystra (Acts 14:11). Near Lystra an inscription to Zeus and a statue of Hermes were found.

From Jerusalem
An inscription found at Jerusalem in Greek and Latin reads: "No foreigner may enter within the barrier which surrounds the temple and enclosure. Anyone who is caught doing so will be personally responsible for his ensuing death." This is comparable to the Biblical situation with follows: "crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." (For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut. Now as they were seeking to kill him, news came to the commander of the garrison that all Jerusalem was in an uproar" (Acts 21:28-31).


CONCLUSION
Could all of this been fabricated by Biblical writers?

Nothing has been presented that is remarkable from a historiographical point of view.

The evidence from archaeology says NO! As quoted in the New York Times, Dr. Nelson Gluech said, "No archaeological discovery has ever been made that contradicts or controverts historical statements in Scripture." (Book Review, Oct. 18, 1956).

And that's an absolutely laughable falsehood.

Henry M. Morris observes: "...there exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point." (The Bible and Modern Science, p. 95). Every day archeologist and historians are uncovering more and more evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.

Completely and totally untrue. I work professionally with all kinds of biblical scholarship, including numerous archaeologists, and not a one of them, believer or otherwise, would ever suggest anything even remotely close to this. You're sharing assertions made by fundamentalists that flatly and unilaterally contradict all current archaeological standards.

If the Bible is so accurate historically how much more is it in guiding man spiritually

[_SteelHead]

Jason,
To add to my previous reply, if I were to experience a road to Damascus apparition of a supernatural being encouraging me to convert to the worship of a zombie so he could obliviate the onus on my soul due to my misdeeds I would be more inclined to questions my mental state than convert.

I am admittedly a skeptic in this regards. Tobin, on the other hand is an expert on this type of convertive manifestation of divinity. I am sure he would be more than happy to elucidate on the value of this type of experience. He is always anxious and ready to educate on this powerful method of knowing the will of god.

Should Tobin fail to engage, I suggest nightlion.

[_moksha]

Black Jesus...Korean Jesus...and now Mormon Jesus. I'm confused.

Even Carlton Jesus:

[_jordon3]

No Offence Maklelan, but I have an odd sense about you. I most likely would have answered your queries if they had been one or two at a time but I actually feel bombarded. I am not trying to cop out here but actually for some reason don't trust you. Can't explain why just a feeling...could be wrong as I don't go by feelings. It's too bad as that was not my initial reaction to you. I will stick to the archeologists and historians etc that are well respected in their fields and leave it at that. There will always be contrarians no matter what the topic and that is why I stick to the experts and not those who think they are the experts. Hope that makes sense. Take care

[_SteelHead]

Jason,
None of the archaeologists/historians you quoted are well respected in their fields. They are out of date, uncritical sources cited by creationist and rejected by all but those with pre conclusions. Mak, despite his Mormonism could argue most of us into the ground and support his arguments with great sources.

[_SteelHead]

Jason,
To add to my previous reply, if I were to experience a road to Damascus apparition of a supernatural being encouraging me to convert to the worship of a zombie so he could obliviate the onus on my soul due to my misdeeds I would be more inclined to questions my mental state than convert.

I am admittedly a skeptic in this regards. Tobin, on the other hand is an expert on this type of convertive manifestation of divinity. I am sure he would be more than happy to elucidate on the value of this type of experience. He is always anxious and ready to educate on this powerful method of knowing the will of god.

Should Tobin fail to engage, I suggest nightlion.

BUMPED for Tobin (or Nightlion).

[_Megacles]

No Offence Maklelan, but I have an odd sense about you. I most likely would have answered your queries if they had been one or two at a time but I actually feel bombarded. I am not trying to cop out here but actually for some reason don't trust you. Can't explain why just a feeling...could be wrong as I don't go by feelings. It's too bad as that was not my initial reaction to you. I will stick to the archeologists and historians etc that are well respected in their fields and leave it at that. There will always be contrarians no matter what the topic and that is why I stick to the experts and not those who think they are the experts. Hope that makes sense. Take care

Jason15

Do you also feel bombarded by my response to you? Why do you not answer?

[_Albion]

megacles, I was not so much interested in the issue of whether or not you consider yourself a Christian as much as attempting to demonstrate the huge gulf between Mormon theology and that which is believed by the larger Christian church which is the underlying cause of this debate. For instance, it was interesting to see that you mentioned Christ dying for sinful man, you mentioned his suffering, but said nothing of the cross, instead emphasizing the Garden of Gethsemane. More and more in recent years, I hear Mormons emphasizing the Garden as the place of atonement. Is this now official Mormon doctrine or just something that has crept into Mormonism and is repeated as if it is doctrine. That premise alone, which IMV only serves the adversary's contempt for the cross and Christ's blood shed there, marks a major distinction that separates Mormonism from the Christian family. So often, it seems to me, Mormons use terms and expressions which in and of themselves make them sound very mainstream. It is only on further examination that we discover how very different the meaning and understanding of those things is from normally accepted Christian doctrine.

[_Megacles]

I just figured it out. Jason15, nice trick. The thread title, with no punctuation, is a double-negative.

NO Mormons are not Christian!

So that means ALL Mormons are Christian!