Megacles wrote:I just figured it out. Jason15, you cunning little trickster. The thread title, with no punctuation, is a double-negative.
NO Mormons are not Christian!
So that means ALL Mormons are Christian!
LOL
No, Jason thought he'd meet more accepting people in the Terrestrial forum. We are disabusing him of that view.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Albion wrote:megacles, I was not so much interested in the issue of whether or not you consider yourself a Christian as much as attempting to demonstrate the huge gulf between Mormon theology and that which is believed by the larger Christian church which is the underlying cause of this debate. For instance, it was interesting to see that you mentioned Christ dying for sinful man, you mentioned his suffering, but said nothing of the cross, instead emphasizing the Garden of Gethsemane. More and more in recent years, I hear Mormons emphasizing the Garden as the place of atonement. Is this now official Mormon doctrine or just something that has crept into Mormonism and is repeated as if it is doctrine. That premise alone, which IMV only serves the adversary's contempt for the cross and Christ's blood shed there, marks a major distinction that separates Mormonism from the Christian family. So often, it seems to me, Mormons use terms and expressions which in and of themselves make them sound very mainstream. It is only on further examination that we discover how very different the meaning and understanding of those things is from normally accepted Christian doctrine.
Albion
Thanks for the discussion. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that there is a large enough gulf between LDS beliefs and those of traditional Christianity as to render LDS beliefs non-Christian.
May I interject a question for you? Does this gulf also exist between, say, the Westboro Baptist Church and Plymouth Brethren?
Jason15 wrote:No Offence Maklelan, but I have an odd sense about you. I most likely would have answered your queries if they had been one or two at a time but I actually feel bombarded. I am not trying to cop out here but actually for some reason don't trust you. Can't explain why just a feeling...could be wrong as I don't go by feelings. It's too bad as that was not my initial reaction to you. I will stick to the archeologists and historians etc that are well respected in their fields and leave it at that. There will always be contrarians no matter what the topic and that is why I stick to the experts and not those who think they are the experts. Hope that makes sense. Take care
Makes perfect sense, when you have no cogent rebuttal, attack the messenger and then run.
Srsly you quoted stuff that was out of date before you were born, however old you are.
Mak spent a lot of time responding to you and all you have is bad feelings?
You threw out all that crap and then blame Mak for responding to it all? What nonsense!
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Sorry Megacles....my statement is not a double-negative..... I will make it clearer for you ....Mormons are not Christian......They follow a different Jesus, a different God than Orthodox Biblical Christianity. Please don't twist my words when the information I have presented does not indicate in any way "So that means ALL Mormons are Christian!" That would be called deception. I didn't take you for that kind of person from your initial posts.
Tobin I expected to be attacked by deceptive people....not unlike Joseph Smith. I am not surprised at all how Mormons twist thing around. I mean really I would have a very hard time believing anything Mormons tell me....after all their founder Joseph Smith lied about men living on the moon. He fabricated what they looked like, he fabricated what they wore etc. Then Brigham Young comes along and teaches that the sun is inhabited. COME ON and then your Mormons expect me to believe anything you say when your follow goon that stuck his head in a hat and translated the Book of Mormon using a peep stone and EVEN translated the same errors as the KJV of the Bible. Then he translated the Book of Abraham which turned out to be another fabrication and lie. How can you people believe anything this lunatic says. He is the founder of your organization. He has been proven to be a FALSE prophet.
Jason15 wrote:Sorry Megacles....my statement is not a double-negative..... I will make it clearer for you ....Mormons are not Christian......They follow a different Jesus, a different God than Orthodox Biblical Christianity. Please don't twist my words when the information I have presented does not indicate in any way "So that means ALL Mormons are Christian!" That would be called deception. I didn't take you for that kind of person from your initial posts.
Jason15
Sorry to have offended you so. I was trying to be funny, and I apologize.
Will you address what I said?
you wrote:Christians use the Bible and only the Bible as their source of truth. They don't go by feelings or emotions ....they go by what the Bible says.
I wrote:There are two issues with this approach. 1) circular reasoning: The Bible is true because the Bible says it is true, 2) the creeds to which many traditional Christians adhere are not in the Bible, so to say that the Bible is the only source of Christian truth is not accurate.
Jason15 wrote:Tobin I expected to be attacked by deceptive people....not unlike Joseph Smith. I am not surprised at all how Mormons twist thing around. I mean really I would have a very hard time believing anything Mormons tell me....after all their founder Joseph Smith lied about men living on the moon. He fabricated what they looked like, he fabricated what they wore etc. Then Brigham Young comes along and teaches that the sun is inhabited. COME ON and then your Mormons expect me to believe anything you say when your follow goon that stuck his head in a hat and translated the Book of Mormon using a peep stone and EVEN translated the same errors as the KJV of the Bible. Then he translated the Book of Abraham which turned out to be another fabrication and lie. How can you people believe anything this lunatic says. He is the founder of your organization. He has been proven to be a FALSE prophet.
As I've said, you are completely misunderstanding my intent. I really don't take anything you have to say seriously because all of the stuff you have cut-and-paste into the forum is out-of-date and/or simply wrong. I do find you to be extremely amusing because you clearly think you are making a serious point. And please do try to address maklelan. He's completely demolished everything you had to say in this thread so far. Maybe if you do that, you'll learn something (as unlikely as I think that is).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Thanks Megacles... no worries and thanks for your kindness.
To answer your question with a question----- Is the Bible the only trusted source of truth and inspiration for Christians? The Bible is the "foundation" for all truth for Christians. Yes God does speak, through Ministers every week otherwise people may as well stay home. But for Christians, the Bible is to be our criteria to "compare" truths. That is why a great minister will say don't automatically believe everything I say but TEST it against the Word of God....ie does it line up with the Word of God in the Bible. I have heard many Pastors and Ministers say this. If what we hear does not match up with the Bible – Isaiah says if they speak not according to this Word – the law and the testimony – that’s the word of God – there is no light in them. So we’re to measure everything. Megacles I hope this answers your question...let me know.
OK OK Tobin I obviously should have checked into the dates of the cut and paste a little closer. I regret that....won't be making that mistake anytime soon. God knows your have brought it up enough times. As far as this Maklelan goes I don't trust his research either. Sorry if you think that is an excuse. I don't care....I find him creepy to be honest, that is my opinion and "feeling". You on the other hand are just plain nasty. Now maybe you can tell me how you can follow the teaching of Joseph Smith when he has lied , deceived married 14 year old children, was an adulterer, fabricated the Book of Abraham and plagerized the BOM--- errors and all then maybe I will consider reintroducing maklelan......By the way you can check all this out in your own Church History. Let's just start with one question as I don't want to bombard you. How can your believe in a so called prophet that fabricated a lie about men living on the moon, he describes them and what they wear and how old they live etc. All absurd lies and yet you follow his teachings. REALLY WOW then you berate me. How can I take anything you say seriously when your follow such a lunatic.
Jason15 wrote:OK OK Tobin I obviously should have checked into the dates of the cut and paste a little closer. I regret that....won't be making that mistake anytime soon. God knows your have brought it up enough times. As far as this Maklelan goes I don't trust his research either. Sorry if you think that is an excuse. I don't care....I find him creepy to be honest, that is my opinion and "feeling". You on the other hand are just plain nasty. Now maybe you can tell me how you can follow the teaching of Joseph Smith when he has lied , deceived married 14 year old children, was an adulterer, fabricated the Book of Abraham and plagerized the BOM--- errors and all then maybe I will consider reintroducing maklelan......By the way you can check all this out in your own Church History. Let's just start with one question as I don't want to bombard you. How can your believe in a so called prophet that fabricated a lie about men living on the moon, he describes them and what they wear and how old they live etc. All absurd lies and yet you follow his teachings. REALLY WOW then you berate me. How can I take anything you say seriously when your follow such a lunatic.
First, you really have no idea who I am or what I believe, so your presumptions about that is rather comical. Second, you rattling off a bunch of nonsense about Joseph Smith (true or not) that matters little to me. Joseph Smith was a human-being and fallible and he most certainly did not claim to be God. Your equivocating about what he presumably did or didn't do as if he were God is absurd. And third, I've seen and heard God so I just might know a little bit more about the topic than you. So have you seen and heard God?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
See I knew Tobin would elucidate and set you straight Jason.
He has seen god, just like Paul, while engaged in self destructive behavior, just like Paul, and was converted to the truth as a result of his divine apparition, just like Paul. Tobin's (words and teachings) should then be every bit as reliable as Paul's. I personally give them equal weight. I figure Tobin has just as much claim to the apostleship as Paul.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin