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Nipper, this one's for you...




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Jason15 wrote:Megacles, it be great to get your response.

I will start by directing you to this:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

Can I deny basic Mormon doctrine and be a Mormon. For example, I deny the following Mormon doctrines.

I deny that there are many many gods (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 163).
I deny that the trinity is three separate gods (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

You deny these teachings in the Bible?

Gen 1:6 Let us make man in our image.
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

etc.

I deny that god is a man from another planet (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

Nothing in the Journal of Discourses is official doctrine.

I deny that there is a goddess mother (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

I deny that god is married to his goddess wife (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516.).
I deny that god and his goddess wife have bodies of flesh and bones (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22; Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3.)

There is a great deal of evidence that early Jews regarded Asherah as a goddess (see Raphael Patai)

As for bodies of flesh and bones, I believe that is a unique Mormon doctrine.

I deny that we were all born in the pre-existence (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218; Articles of Faith, p. 174).
I deny that Satan is my spirit brother (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).

I think these might also be unique to Mormonism.

I deny that I need a temple (Articles of Faith, p. 138).

Then you are denying centuries of Hebrew and Christian beliefs (see: http://www.oxfordbiblicalstudies.com/re ... ples.xhtml)

I deny that I have the potential of becoming a god (Articles of Faith, p. 424).

Then you must also reject the Bible and many of the early Christian fathers. Theosis is talked about by, I believe, Clement and St. Augustine and a few others. Were they Christian?

I deny that the Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).

Okay.

I deny that good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 81, 92).

Then, again, you must also reject the Bible.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I deny that my own blood must atone for any of my sins (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).

I deny it, too. That is not official doctrine. Nothing in the Journal of Discourses is.

THEREFORE, since the Mormons deny basic Christian doctrines and call themselves Christian, is it okay for me to deny basic Mormon doctrines and call myself a Mormon?

If you want to, sure.

Jason15 states "I deny that good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 81, 92)."


Megacles states "Then, again, you must also reject the Bible."

Megs this is were we differ drastically . My salvation is a GIFT from GOD and something I don't have to work towards. A Gift. Now.... once a Christian is saved... of course works come into play and become necessary. I certainly don't have to work for salvation as it is by GRACE I have been saved and again it is a gracious GIFT from God. You say I must reject the Bible because I believe this. Really.... I say no I will not cherry pick a verse and use it as doctrine when the context of the New Testament does not teach that we are saved by works as a part of salvation(that is old covenant) which Jesus abolished...thank God , My Jesus did the "finished" work on the cross and thank God He did because NOTHING I could do would measure up to what would be required. NOTHING no matter how hard I tried. It would be arrogant of me to think so.

Megs I hesitate to post scripture because I am adamant that people read the verses before and after the quoted verse or the entire chapter preferably. This is the only way to get the context correctly. in my opinion one really has to understand what Grace really means and what is a Gift. Again works come AFTER salvation not a means to salvation. This is the Christian belief which is becoming more appreciated and recognized.

Context

… Ephesians 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that "not" of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 "not" as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Cross References

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

1 Corinthians 1:29
so that no one may boast before him.

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God's holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Ephesians 2:7
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus

Jason15 wrote:Jason15 states "I deny that good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 81, 92)."


Megacles states "Then, again, you must also reject the Bible."

Megs this is were we differ drastically . My salvation is a GIFT from GOD and something I don't have to work towards. A Gift. Now.... once a Christian is saved... of course works come into play and become necessary.

So really evangelism and missionary work is utterly pointless, since nothing you, I, or anyone else does will ever influence my salvation at all. It's an entirely arbitrary gift. It doesn't matter what one does, says, believes, or watches on TV, they are either going to have their number come up at the big roll of the dice in the sky or they're not. Me changing my mind about Mormonism or Christ has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not God arbitrarily decides to save me.

Of course, once you're saved, you have to start working to show your congregation that you're really saved. Good works in fundamentalism is about making sure others judge you the way you want.

Jason15 wrote:I certainly don't have to work for salvation as it is by GRACE I have been saved and again it is a gracious GIFT from God.

Meaning it must be completely arbitrary.

Jason15 wrote:You say I must reject the Bible because I believe this.

It's not a biblical idea. James explicitly and flatly rejects it. Paul's position is more of a mediating one. The notion that James is referring to being justified before men after being saved is absolutely and complete nonsense. The text directly challenges two of Paul's claims and examples on exactly the same issue.

Jason15 wrote:Really.... I say no I will not cherry pick a verse and use it as doctrine when the context of the New Testament does not teach that we are saved by works as a part of salvation(that is old covenant) which Jesus abolished...thank God , My Jesus did the "finished" work on the cross and thank God He did because NOTHING I could do would measure up to what would be required. NOTHING no matter how hard I tried. It would be arrogant of me to think so.

Megs I hesitate to post scripture because I am adamant that people read the verses before and after the quoted verse or the entire chapter preferably. This is the only way to get the context correctly.

Post whatever you want and I'll show you exactly how thoroughly you misunderstand the context.

Jason15 wrote:in my opinion one really has to understand what Grace really means and what is a Gift. Again works come AFTER salvation not a means to salvation. This is the Christian belief which is becoming more appreciated and recognized.

Or rather, which has been recently invented. Early Protestantism didn't appeal to such lunacy to try to deal with James.

Jason15 wrote:Context

… Ephesians 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that "not" of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 "not" as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Cross References

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

1 Corinthians 1:29
so that no one may boast before him.

2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God's holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Ephesians 2:7
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus

This is a challenge to Jewish legalism. "The works of the law" refer to the Law of Moses. That's what Paul is claiming is not relevant to salvation. Jesus actually points out that belief is a work, and a necessary one. If you believe one is required to have faith, as Paul does, then you believe that one's works save them. Modern fundamentalists, of course, have concocted this notion that even faith is something God just arbitrarily compels us to have.

Maklelan what did the Thief do to DESERVE salvation? Nothing---- Christ in his MERCY and GRACE received the THIEF because he had FAITH to believe Christ. He certainly did NOT work for his salvation. This is the perfect example of Salvation by the mercy and Grace of God. As Rom 3:28 says," For we maintain that a person is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from the works of the law."


Luke 23:32-43, (NAS95) 32 Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. 33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He(JESUS) said to him, "Truly I say to you, TODAY YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.

Maklelan your state"
"It's not a biblical idea. James explicitly and flatly rejects it. Paul's position is more of a mediating one. The notion that James is referring to being justified before men after being saved is absolutely and complete nonsense. The text directly challenges two of Paul's claims and examples on exactly the same issue. "

Jason15 says" I COMPLETELY DISAGREE. James does NOT disagree with Paul in the slightest. Both totally agree that we are saved by Faith and Grace in Jesus and not by works. That is Completely clear in Scripture. Now WHAT we do after we are saved is a sign. ie we DON'T work our way to Salvation ANY MORE THAN THE THIEF ON THE CROSS DID. IE what a perfect example of being save by Faith and Grace.


Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul DOGMATICALLY says that justification is by faith ALONE(Ephesians 2:8-9), while James APPEARS to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is NOT saying that justification is by faith plus works, BUT RATHER that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life, then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14,17,20,26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, NOT works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). JAMES AND PAUL DO "NOT" DISAGREE IN THEIR TEACHING REGARDING SALVATION. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Jason15 wrote:Maklelan what did the Thief do to DESERVE salvation?

He acknowledged the justice of their punishment and manifested his faith in Jesus. You think if he just kept his mouth shut Jesus would have said what he did to him? Of course not. Don't be ridiculous. His actions saved him, not some arbitrary decision by Christ.

Jason15 wrote:Nothing---- Christ in his MERCY and GRACE received the THIEF because he had FAITH to believe Christ. He certainly did NOT work for his salvation.

Jesus describes belief as a work that is necessary for salvation. The thief certainly satisfied that requirement.

Jason15 wrote:This is the perfect example of Salvation by the mercy and Grace of God.

Only if you completely ignore what the text says.

Jason15 wrote:As Rom 3:28 says," For we maintain that a person is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from the works of the law."

And as I have already pointed out, that refer to salvation independent of the Law of Moses. You're just ignoring my argument to reassert the very claims my argument directly addresses.

Jason15 wrote:Jason15 says" I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.

Of course you do.

Jason15 wrote:James does NOT disagree with Paul in the slightest.

That is flatly false. Paul says Abraham was not justified by works (Rom 4:1-3), and James says Abraham absolutely was justified by works (Jas 2:21-24). As James points out, faith is a product of works, so salvation by faith demands works. The notion that he's talking about being justified before men is absolutely asinine. Absolutely nothing in the text justifies such a reading. James is directly confronting Paul's claim by pointing out that faith unto salvation is the product of works. Works leads to faith, which leads to salvation.

Jason15 wrote:Both totally agree that we are saved by Faith and Grace in Jesus and not by works.

That's why he says three different times that faith without works cannot save.

Jason15 wrote:That is Completely clear in Scripture. Now WHAT we do after we are saved is a sign. ie we DON'T work our way to Salvation ANY MORE THAN THE THIEF ON THE CROSS DID. IE what a perfect example of being save by Faith and Grace.

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul DOGMATICALLY says that justification is by faith ALONE(Ephesians 2:8-9), while James APPEARS to be saying that justification is by faith plus works.

Uh, that's not at all what James is saying. James is pointing out that faith is a product of works. One cannot develop faith without first producing works. You are saved by faith, but that faith has to be developed through works. Even Luther understood James' point, which is why he called his letter an "epistle of straw." This newfangled reading whereby James is supposed to refer to post-salvation works is quite recent and quite ridiculous.

Jason15 wrote:This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26).

You're putting the cart before the horse. Absolutely nothing in the text justifies that reading.

Jason15 wrote:James is NOT saying that justification is by faith plus works, BUT RATHER that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life, then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14,17,20,26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, NOT works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). JAMES AND PAUL DO "NOT" DISAGREE IN THEIR TEACHING REGARDING SALVATION. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Uh, no, James explicitly states that Abraham was indeed justified by works. This is the exact opposite of what Paul said. This is no separate facet. James directly challenges Paul. Of that there can be absolutely no doubt.

Maklelan states "Uh, that's not at all what James is saying. James is pointing out that faith is a product of works."

Tell Maklelan what works did the thief do that produced faith ? He was a criminal and a thief hanging on a cross beside Jesus. i highly doubt he was doing God's work Faith in Christ alone saved him as Jesus points out.
No wonder you are always spouting off about contradictions in the Bible...the way you fit it together it is no wonder. James and Paul are on exactly the same page...you just have your filtered glasses on and refuse to consider other possibiilites. Again WHAT works did the thief do with regard to justifciation and his salvation? My Jesus just accepted him because he had faith in HIM ...nothing more and nothing less

Malelan you say Paul says Abraham was not justified by works (Rom 4:1-3) and James says Abraham absolutely was justified by works (Jas 2:21-24)

Unbeleivable..... crap man could you are living under the old covenant --- Your scaring me now. lol People absolutely believed that works more than anything was the means to salvation or justification under the old covenant... The new covenant is an entirely different situation...Thanks to the FINISHED work of CHrist on the cross

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