DiscussMormonism.com

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).

Tobin wrote:No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said.

Tobin wrote:I don't care what the LDS Church's position is on such and such. I don't care what Joseph Smith said about such and such. And I don't care what other LDS leaders opinions were either. As far as I'm concerned, the LDS Church is a man-made organization of like-minded believers and that is it. It doesn't have a special monopoly on the truth.

Jason15 wrote:Here are some facts of why Mormons are not Christian
google "Are Mormons Christians"
It upsets me that Mormons are calling themselves Christians when they are actually anti Christian according to the Bible.
Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations which Joseph Smith said were, ". . .all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)
In the past Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years the LDS church has spend millions in an intense public relations campaign aimed at moving their church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in their proselyting the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present themselves as Christians and trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

Hopefully, this article will help the both Mormons and non-Mormons to see that Mormonism worships a different god and Jesus Christ and not the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Constitution of the United States gives every citizen the right of freedom of religion and the LDS people have the right to believe as they desire. However, biblical Christians also have the right to defend their historic faith as revealed in the Bible and expose those who misuse their historic name.

Jason15 wrote:lostindc states
From what I can pull away from reading your post, you continue to move the goal post as to what qualifies a faith to be Christian. You attempt to distinguish/build a certain type of Jesus that excludes other faiths. This appears to be very non Christ-like to me.


The Christian Jesus is not a created being, the Mormon Jesus is a created being------ HUGE difference in nature....I am not moving any goal post ...I am just trying to get the point across that Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine are so opposed to each other that it is impossible for both to be called Christians.

SteelHead wrote:SteelHead's guide to understanding Tobin.

Any time Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon etc agrees with Tobin they were speaking with the approval of god, as a prophet, etc.

Any time the disagree with his pet theories they were wrong, human, etc.

Tobin is the ultimate word on Mormon doctrine. I know of no Mormons however, that would claim him as one of their own. He is then a prophet unto himself in a religion of one adherent. Espousing a methodology on knowing the will of God, that by his own admission he has never experienced as god, when he visited Tobin on his personal road to Damascus, never actually told Tobin anything, nor spoke with him.

He is then for all intents and purposes a crackpot. And as he lacks the style and panache of NightLion, he is a poor crackpot , at that.

This has been a public service announcement.

No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said. Let me spell this out to you in English. That means you are LYING and being thoroughly dishonest. And I'll demonstrate how you are lying by quoting IN FULL what Joseph Smith ACTUALLY said:

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm


First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it

Read that carefully Markk. Joseph Smith himself didn't say Heavenly Father was just any ordinary man. No, instead he makes it very clear that he was once a mortal creature - THE SAME AS JESUS CHRIST. He was in reality once the savior of a world as Jesus Christ was on our world. And despite Jesus Christ being a man, he was also God in that he was perfect, he never sinned, he never made a mistake, and he has provided for the salvation of everyone. WE ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST NOR CAN WE EVER BE HIM. What that means is we can never be or do what God has done - EVER. We can share in all that God has to give us, but we can not be God. It is simply beyond us

Markk wrote:

No, you are MISREPRESENTING what Joseph Smith said. Let me spell this out to you in English. That means you are LYING and being thoroughly dishonest. And I'll demonstrate how you are lying by quoting IN FULL what Joseph Smith ACTUALLY said:

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm


First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it

Read that carefully Markk. Joseph Smith himself didn't say Heavenly Father was just any ordinary man. No, instead he makes it very clear that he was once a mortal creature - THE SAME AS JESUS CHRIST. He was in reality once the savior of a world as Jesus Christ was on our world. And despite Jesus Christ being a man, he was also God in that he was perfect, he never sinned, he never made a mistake, and he has provided for the salvation of everyone. WE ARE NOT JESUS CHRIST NOR CAN WE EVER BE HIM. What that means is we can never be or do what God has done - EVER. We can share in all that God has to give us, but we can not be God. It is simply beyond us

Joseph Smith qualified the context by stating..."was once a man like us"... are you saying Joseph Smith was both god and man like Jesus was? Joseph Smith said "us" meaning his self, and those listening to him.

Markk wrote:You have not addressed the demands your position leaves that both worthy LDS men and women will have " ALL" the power, knowledge, Glory, power and dominion as HF and Jesus, VS. my belief it is just worthy men in context. Which your position certainly separates LDS theology from Christian theology forever, as does mine.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Markk wrote:You have not addressed TELOP and the demands it places on the LDS plan of salvation, including how men become gods.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

Markk wrote:You have not addressed the demands on GA respectability, by your denying a LDS teaching manual written under the authority of arguably two of the most qualified LDS authors and leaders that have lead the church; you saying what they teach can not be trusted as truth?

Jason15 wrote:Here are some facts of why Mormons are not Christian
google "Are Mormons Christians"
It upsets me that Mormons are calling themselves Christians when they are actually anti Christian according to the Bible.
Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations which Joseph Smith said were, ". . .all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)
In the past Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years the LDS church has spend millions in an intense public relations campaign aimed at moving their church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in their proselyting the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present themselves as Christians and trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

Hopefully, this article will help the both Mormons and non-Mormons to see that Mormonism worships a different god and Jesus Christ and not the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Constitution of the United States gives every citizen the right of freedom of religion and the LDS people have the right to believe as they desire. However, biblical Christians also have the right to defend their historic faith as revealed in the Bible and expose those who misuse their historic name.

Tobin wrote:...That is just another mischaracterization of what he said. Of course we share some similar traits with Jesus Christ - for example, Jesus Christ was mortal and so are we. But there are important differences too and Joseph Smith spells out exactly what those are - namely he was God and laid down his life and took it up again.

Again, yes I have by citing verse 19. It clearly spells that out.


I have addressed that repeatedly as well. I have pointed out that the GAs are men and NOT God. They are fallible, express their opinions and they can and are wrong especially when they contradict scriptures (and even Joseph Smith himself). Also, citing material oriented towards a male audience is not a fair representation of Mormon teachings