Are Mormons Christian? Spilt from original thread

[_Markk]

1st, the everlasting covenant is not TELOP, so your proof text is spun...again, what demand do the ELOP have on your salvation and final estate?

Here - I'll use small words for you since you refuse to read the scriptures I have cited. Mankind become gods (a.k.a. Celestial beings) by doing everything God asks of them.

2nd, then you believe both "worthy" men and women will be gods and have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge as HF and Jesus...? Please answer.

As maklelan already pointed out to you, women will actually be referred to as goddesses. And no, I don't believe that characterization of D&C 132. It does not say that.

3rd, Where is the line as to what "the church" teaches? My grand parents, my father, lived and died believing worthy men can become gods, not women...were they duped or just not as smart as you?

They were mistaken. That comes with being human and being fallible.

Also... if Joseph Smith was wrong about the nature of God, whom he claimed to have seen and talked to on many occasions, why should anyone believe a word he has said, including D&C 132?

Actually, you shouldn't believe ANYTHING Joseph Smith had to say unless God confirms it.

4th, the context was set when Joseph Smith said HF was just like you and me...period, you keep overlooking that qualifying statement to the context of the KFD.
I guess to you it doesn't matter what the church teaches, it appears to me, that to you, it is nothing more than subjective candor? In other words LDS leaders are sincere, frank, and bold in their teachings yet in all reality it is nothing more than their own opinions that are just not true.
This is why I teach that Mormonism is not based on any real sets of truths, but on personal opinions subjective to "the survival of the church." Meaning, it does not matter what is taught, or by whom, as long as the personal testimony of "the church" survives. "God was once a man"...maybe, maybe not...it depend on the moment and the saint...TELOP? Naw, it is a teaching, it is in the AoF, but it means nothing to me? Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Ezra Taft Benson, John Widstoe, Callis, Richards, and Hunter....all misunderstood, and taught wrongly on the true nature of God and TELOP but you, Tobin, got it right? More to the maze.

I don't pretend to know everything or be perfect if that is what you are getting at? But I do think I have a more firm grasp of this topic than you do.

So just one more time...do you believe worthy LDS men AND women have will have All the power lorry dominion and knowledge that HF and Jesus have?

We've already been over this. I do not endorse your mischaracterizations of D&C 132 - so NO!!!

What does TELOP demand on this discussion, you seem to avoid discussing this? Then we can back up.

[_maklelan]

I agree that is LDS thought. Then who is the church referring to below when they call them Gods? men or women...?

They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

Who will have All power, glory, knowledge, and dominion...worthy men. worthy women, or both?

I explained this above:

D&C 132:19-20 refers to both the husband and the wife throughout with "they." "They shall be gods" refers to the husband and the wife. The Church has always followed the tradition of avoiding gender inclusive terms, preferring to use "men" and "man" to refer collectively to humankind, male and female.

[_Markk]

I agree that is LDS thought. Then who is the church referring to below when they call them Gods? men or women...?

They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).

Who will have All power, glory, knowledge, and dominion...worthy men. worthy women, or both?

I explained this above:

D&C 132:19-20 refers to both the husband and the wife throughout with "they." "They shall be gods" refers to the husband and the wife. The Church has always followed the tradition of avoiding gender inclusive terms, preferring to use "men" and "man" to refer collectively to humankind, male and female.

So you believe both men and women will have the very same power, knowledge, glory, and dominion as HF and Jesus.

Doesn't the context of the verses deal with men and the "they" are men who enter into the ELC? It says they shall be gods, not goddess's? I wonder if all the virgins the man/men (not collectively mankind) marries will also have all the knowledge and power of HF?

[_maklelan]

So you believe both men and women will have the very same power, knowledge, glory, and dominion as HF and Jesus.

Obviously not. LDS soteriology holds that gender extends into the eternities, and the genders have different roles in the same. You're not going to be successful trying to parse an ideological conflict out of this issue, so save yourself the time.

Doesn't the context of the verses deal with men and the "they" are men who enter into the ELC?

I will not post the same explanation a third time.

It says they shall be gods, not goddess's?

Did you not understand what I meant about avoiding gender inclusive language?

I wonder if all the virgins the man/men (not collectively mankind) marries will also have all the knowledge and power of HF?

You've gone off the deep end, Markk.

[_Tobin]

What does TELOP demand on this discussion, you seem to avoid discussing this? Then we can back up.

I place NO significance with the acronym TELOP. You just simply started using it without defining it or providing any scriptural reference or significance to it. TELOP is not an acronym or concept expressed in ANY of the material we have been discussing. It is only something you seem to place significance with. My guess is it is something you invented or misunderstood about Mormonism. So, since I'm not entirely sure what it is - I bet TELOP refers to YOUR BELIEF that Man will one day be God or progress to be God. I've repeatedly pointed out why that is not so. We can progress to being exalted and becoming gods (Celestial beings) through the new and everlasting convenant of marriage (and doing everything else that God asks).

Here is what you said when you first started using it:

TELOP (???) demands that this is how men become gods. The same D&C verse reads "they shall be gods." I have never read any LDS teaching that women or unworthy men shall become gods...have you?

As I've pointed out above, there is no such thing as TELOP to make "demands". There is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and how it applies in our PROGRESSION towards exaltation (which is material you then cited). Otherwise, you are just putting forward a meaningless rhetoric of your own invention or a supposition someone expressed in Mormonism somewhere on the internet is my guess.

[_Markk]

So you believe both men and women will have the very same power, knowledge, glory, and dominion as HF and Jesus.

Obviously not. LDS soteriology holds that gender extends into the eternities, and the genders have different roles in the same. You're not going to be successful trying to parse an ideological conflict out of this issue, so save yourself the time.

Doesn't the context of the verses deal with men and the "they" are men who enter into the ELC?

I will not post the same explanation a third time.

It says they shall be gods, not goddess's?

Did you not understand what I meant about avoiding gender inclusive language?

I wonder if all the virgins the man/men (not collectively mankind) marries will also have all the knowledge and power of HF?

You've gone off the deep end, Markk.

So then in GP those that have all the power, knowledge, glory and dominion are men then?

5.
They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge

I thought you said "they" were men and women?

[_Markk]

What does TELOP demand on this discussion, you seem to avoid discussing this? Then we can back up.

I place NO significance with the acronym TELOP. You just simply started using it without defining it or providing any scriptural reference or significance to it. TELOP is not an acronym or concept expressed in ANY of the material we have been discussing. It is only something you seem to place significance with. My guess is it is something you invented or misunderstood about Mormonism. So, since I'm not entirely sure what it is - I bet TELOP refers to YOUR BELIEF that Man will one day be God or progress to be God. I've repeatedly pointed out why that is not so. We can progress to being exalted and becoming gods (Celestial beings) through the new and everlasting convenant of marriage (and doing everything else that God asks).

Here is what you said when you first started using it:

TELOP (???) demands that this is how men become gods. The same D&C verse reads "they shall be gods." I have never read any LDS teaching that women or unworthy men shall become gods...have you?

As I've pointed out above, there is no such thing as TELOP to make "demands". There is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and how it applies in our PROGRESSION towards exaltation (which is material you then cited). Otherwise, you are just putting forward a meaningless rhetoric of your own invention or a supposition someone expressed in Mormonism somewhere on the internet is my guess.

So you do not believe in the LDS concept of the eternal law of progression?

Do you understand what unconditional (universal) and conditional salvation (personal) is in the LDS construct?

[_maklelan]

So then in GP those that have all the power, knowledge, glory and dominion are men then?

Not exclusively men. Please save yourself the trouble of trying to lay this rhetorical snare.

5.
They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge

I thought you said "they" were men and women?

They are. Don't fall into the fundie trap of overinterpreting superlatives.

[_Tobin]

So you do not believe in the LDS concept of the eternal law of progression?

I have no idea what that means at all. If you are progressing, you should have come goal in mind. For example, do I believe that man can progress to be God. NO!!! Why? Because we can NEVER be God. It is beyond us. There is nothing in the gospel that states we will be mortal again or that we will lay down our lives and take them again or do any of the things God has done. Do I believe we can progress to be gods? Certainly. God has promised that if we do everything he asks us to do, we can share in exaltation with him.

Do you understand what unconditional (universal) and conditional salvation (personal) is in the LDS construct?

I understand you think so, but it is meaningless to me. Salvation is universal and a free gift. EVERYONE, who is the posterity of Adam, will be saved (i.e. our intelligence will be preserved/saved and we will once again possess a physical form). Exaltation or the lack of (i.e. where will we end up in the eternities) is dependent on our willingness to do what God asks.

[_Markk]

So then in GP those that have all the power, knowledge, glory and dominion are men then?

Not exclusively men. Please save yourself the trouble of trying to lay this rhetorical snare.

5.
They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge

I thought you said "they" were men and women?

They are. Don't fall into the fundie trap of overinterpreting superlatives.

Your talking in circles and ignoring LDS thought...so then both men and women will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge?"

Call it a snare, which is true, it is certainly a catch 22 that LDS folks are stuck with.