Are Mormons Christian? Spilt from original thread

[_Markk]

So you do not believe in the LDS concept of the eternal law of progression?

I have no idea what that means at all. If you are progressing, you should have come goal in mind. For example, do I believe that man can progress to be God. NO!!! Why? Because we can NEVER be God. It is beyond us. There is nothing in the gospel that states we will be mortal again or that we will lay down our lives and take them again or do any of the things God has done. Do I believe we can progress to be gods? Certainly. God has promised that if we do everything he asks us to do, we can share in exaltation with him.

Do you understand what unconditional (universal) and conditional salvation (personal) is in the LDS construct?

I understand you think so, but it is meaningless to me. Salvation is universal and a free gift. EVERYONE, who is the posterity of Adam, will be saved (i.e. our intelligence will be preserved/saved and we will once again possess a physical form). Exaltation or the lack of (i.e. where will we end up in the eternities) is dependent on our willingness to do what God asks.

What does continuation of seeds mean?

The church teaches that HF was once a man and became God.

Jesus, your older brother, was once a man and became God.

Why can't you become God if your brother did?
Again, to come up with your interpretation, which by the way is a good start, you have to make a mockery of past GA's and their teachings...which is also good.

Exaltation or the lack of (i.e. where will we end up in the eternities) is dependent on our willingness to do what God asks.

This is what JFS wrote...

"Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.5

[_maklelan]

Your talking in circles and ignoring LDS thought...so then both men and women will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge?"

They will have all of it in relation to their own purviews, but not all in an absolute sense. After all, they won't have dominion and power over God the Father. Again, don't fall into the fundie trap of overinterpreting superlatives. All doesn't always means absolutely all, and none doesn't always means absolutely none. Superlatives usually have broader semantic ranges than the simple absolute senses that make drawing firm semantic lines so attractive for fundamentalists and others who don't understand language but still try to manipulate it for rhetorical purposes.

Call it a snare, which is true, it is certainly a catch 22 that LDS folks are stuck with.

No, it's just semantic naïvété.

[_lostindc]

no matter how bad Markk, Jason, etc. want to exclude Mormons from being Christian this will not happen. Redefining what it is to be Christian and/or adding various deeper qualifications such as how a person is to believe in Christ or by adding various interpretations of Christ's teachings does not exclude those with different views.

Judging by the definition below, Mormons are most definitely Christian. I can state confidently, that a person seeking to parse others away from Christ by declaring these others are not Christian appears to be in conflict with being Christian.

Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

[_Tobin]

What does continuation of seeds mean?

Those who are exalted with God will form spirit children under the direction of God. These children will inhabit a new world - just as we did. This cycle repeats forever.

The church teaches that HF was once a man and became God.

And as I've pointed out, that is an incorrect summary of what Joseph Smith really said.

Jesus, your older brother, was once a man and became God.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God. He is not my older brother.

Why can't you become God if your brother did?

Because Jesus Christ is God. I am not.

Again, to come up with your interpretation, which by the way is a good start, you have to make a mockery of past GA's and their teachings...which is also good.

If what they are saying is inconsistent with the scriptures and what Joseph Smith revealed, then they are wrong. And I clearly have explained why.

Exaltation or the lack of (i.e. where will we end up in the eternities) is dependent on our willingness to do what God asks.

This is what JFS wrote...

"Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.5

He is being misinterpreted - which is likely since this is only a partial quote. The scriptures make it clear that all descendants of Adam will have their intelligence preserved and be raised from the dead. There are two terms used in Mormonism though. Those that are raised to Eternal Life and those that are raised to Eternal Damnation (or Death). Those that do not progress to exaltation with God are damned. They can not return and live with God and are damaged as a result. This separation from God is often referred to as spiritual death or damnation. It does not mean they are denied existence though.

[_honorentheos]

no matter how bad Markk, Jason, etc. want to exclude Mormons from being Christian this will not happen. Redefining what it is to be Christian and/or adding various deeper qualifications such as how a person is to believe in Christ or by adding various interpretations of Christ's teachings does not exclude those with different views.

Judging by the definition below, Mormons are most definitely Christian. I can state confidently, that a person seeking to parse others away from Christ by declaring these others are not Christian appears to be in conflict with being Christian.

Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

May I propose a different approach, to which I'd hope some of the believing LDS might respond?

What is the defining problem that Christianity hopes to solve? Is it the same for Mormonism?

What is the solution to the problem proposed by Christianity? Is it the same for Mormonism?

Using this as a place to reboot from, I'd suggest the following answers to the above:

In Christianity, the problem we face is sin. This sin originated with the temptation and succumbing of Eve and Adam in the Garden, and is perpetuated among their descendants today.

While very similar, in Mormonism the problem is different. The problem is mortality itself. We are here on earth with bodies of flesh to be tested and to overcome the natural man. While this seems to be the same on the surface, I'd say they are philosophically very different.

With this in mind, the answer to the problem in Christianity is salvation. Specifically, salvation as made possible through Christ.

In Mormonism, the answer to the problem of the test of mortality is difficult to pin down to one thing, but for discussion's sake let me suggest it is enduring to the end. Within this concept, the atonement is included and perhaps pivotal, but it also not central to the individual's overcoming the problem. The individual themselves must do so, as Christ can not endure to the end on our behalf.

In some ways, I think this gets at why Mormonism may share common stock with modern Christianity but it isn't the same religion. Different problems, different solutions.

[_Nightlion]

In Mormonism, the answer to the problem of the test of mortality is difficult to pin down to one thing, but for discussion's sake let me suggest it is enduring to the end. Within this concept, the atonement is included and perhaps pivotal, but it also not central to the individual's overcoming the problem. The individual themselves must do so, as Christ can not endure to the end on our behalf.

I think this does get to the heart of the matter in both cases. Christianity is NOT about us.......wait for it....it is his work and his glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.....Both are wrong thinking it is focused upon them. So they only go half way to the purpose of Christianity....just enough to satisfy themselves...Christ is standing at the door like some kind of turned down serenading fool, hearing strange words coming from the mixed up mind of fools. (sorry Jimi)

The entire reason Christ suffered was to CHANGE by power the hearts of men and give them a new heart from God. That is something ONLY he can do. But you got to step through the door he opens. All the way in or nothing. Nobody really thinks so because the men they pay to tell them otherwise.....tell them otherwise.

[_Markk]

Your talking in circles and ignoring LDS thought...so then both men and women will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge?"

They will have all of it in relation to their own purviews, but not all in an absolute sense. After all, they won't have dominion and power over God the Father. Again, don't fall into the fundie trap of overinterpreting superlatives. All doesn't always means absolutely all, and none doesn't always means absolutely none. Superlatives usually have broader semantic ranges than the simple absolute senses that make drawing firm semantic lines so attractive for fundamentalists and others who don't understand language but still try to manipulate it for rhetorical purposes.

Call it a snare, which is true, it is certainly a catch 22 that LDS folks are stuck with.

No, it's just semantic naïveté.

Where does it say any of that?

I have pasted what LDS leaders that "hold the keys" have taught, more below, you are only giving circular opinion that contradict not only what the church teaches/taught, but also your own opinion.

. If their [non LDS] rituals gave to their lives the deepest expression and greatest religious growth of which their natures were capable, then they were in harmony with the laws that fit their immediate salvation, but not in harmony with the higher laws of truth that bring the greatest development and make men Gods. The principal phase of this higher system of law is the Gospel plan of salvation. GTTA

Capital G

The glory that Christ received was that of Godhood; therefore, for men to receive the same glory they also shall become Gods

[_Markk]

Those who are exalted with God will form spirit children under the direction of God. These children will inhabit a new world - just as we did. This cycle repeats forever.

Where does it say under the direction of God? Who will these Children Pray to?

And as I've pointed out, that is an incorrect summary of what Joseph Smith really said.

Not according to GA, but Im glad you disagree with you leaders, that's a good thing.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God. He is not my older brother.

Well, that threw a curve to me, you are the only Mormon that I have ever heard say such a thing, but that is also good.

LDS teachings teach...

Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. here

We have a Father; He is in heaven; ...He says that we are His children. ... we actually believe that God the Father is our heavenly Father, that we are His children; and we believe that Jesus Christ is our elder brother—that he is actually the Son of our Father and that he is the Savior of the world, and was appointed to this before the foundations of this earth were laid. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, pp. 235-256, February 20, 1870)

He [Jehovah] was the Son of our Heavenly Father, as we are the sons of our earthly fathers. God is the Father of our spirits, which are clothed upon by fleshly bodies, begotten for us by our earthly fathers. Jesus is our elder brother spirit clothed upon with an earthly body begotten by the Father of our spirits. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 2, September 28, 1862)

Past LDS Pres. Joseph F. Smith wrote:

Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors .... There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the elder brother of the rest of humankind.... Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness. (Improvement Era, vol. 19, pp. 941-942, June 30, 1916)

The Mormon church needs more Mormons like you...keep it up.

[_Tobin]

Where does it say under the direction of God? Who will these Children Pray to?

Are you seriously asking questions like this? You can't achieve exaltation without being willing to follow God's commandments. God's commandments are unending. And the second part is they worship God - just as we do now.

LDS teachings teach...

Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. here

Uh no. That is false. Jesus and Lucifer are not related at all. Jesus Christ is the only son of God. It says so in the scriptures themselves.

[_Bazooka]

All doesn't always means absolutely all, and none doesn't always means absolutely none.

What a truly 'Mormon' statement.....