Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries Safe"

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_Bazooka
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Bazooka »

Here are the official rules:
Who conducts the interview for baptism?

Normally the district leader interviews baptismal candidates taught by missionaries in his district, including candidates taught by his zone leaders. The zone leader interviews candidates taught by the district leader. The mission president or someone he assigns must interview people involved in serious sins. District or zone leaders do not interview baptismal candidates outside their own district or zone unless the mission president assigns them to do so.

What is the definition of a convert baptism?

Convert baptisms are baptisms of:

•Persons ages nine and older who have never before been baptized and confirmed as members of the Church.
•Children age eight whose parents are both nonmembers or whose parents are being baptized and confirmed at the same time as the child.
Do I need permission to baptize a minor child?

Before you can teach and baptize an investigator who is under legal age, you must obtain permission of the parent(s) or legal guardian(s), preferably in writing. In addition, you should have good reason to believe that the child understands the baptismal covenant and will make every effort to keep it through obedience to the gospel, including faithfully attending Church meetings.

Do I need permission of the spouse in order to baptize a husband or wife?

Yes. Do not baptize a married person without the consent of his or her spouse.
http://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng

In the situation above with the mentally challenged 13 year old. Their parents probably did consent, thinking it might be helpful either to the child to have a group of friends, or perhaps they might even have wanted the potential support. Doesn't matter as that's not the point. In actual fact, depending on the level of their mental faculty, it was perhaps not only inappropriate, but unnecessary.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints General Handbook of Instructions given to the priesthood leaders gives the following information concerning persons who are not accountable. “Persons who are not accountable and cannot knowingly repent need not be baptized, no matter what their age. They should be included as members of record with the notation ‘Not accountable’ recorded under the heading for baptism. If they become accountable, they can then be baptized.” (1968, p. 85.)

Mental retardation includes a large range of abilities and disabilities from almost normal to completely incapacitated. Many mentally retarded persons are above the mental level of eight years, and as the General Handbook of Instructions directs, if such persons become accountable “they can then be baptized.” Other, more severely retarded, children will never be accountable. It is the responsibility of those who are appointed “Judges in Israel” to make inspired decisions concerning accountability. When this judgment is made, parents should feel assured that the Lord will give the retarded person every opportunity and blessing promised to the faithful.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/04/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

How did the missionaries and person conducting the interview for baptism assess the mental age of the 13 year old child?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Bazooka
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Bazooka »

I note that Maklelan hasn't come back to this thread to defend his little pieces of secret paper that prove all is well in the mission field despite the examples given.
I also note that KevinSim has yet to back up his claim that the Church "bends over backwards" to ensure missionary safety.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_SteelHead
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _SteelHead »

Well once we determined that corporate risk for the church is almost zero and that this is evidenced by the church embedding missionaries in Liberia..... What could he say? Any pretense that they care about safety is shown to be null and void.

If your 18 year old son got a call to Monrovia Liberia would you say "sure. Why not?" and head to Mr. Mac, or would you say "hell no!" ?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Runtu
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Runtu »

SteelHead wrote:Well once we determined that corporate risk for the church is almost zero and that this is evidenced by the church embedding missionaries in Liberia..... What could he say? Any pretense that they care about safety is shown to be null and void.


The notion that Liberia "passed" a health and safety review is, of course, pure fantasy. I'm sure they are doing the best they can within the constraints of a violent country with significant health risks and poor living conditions, but if the church really prohibits missionaries from entering dangerous neighborhoods, it sounds as if the missionaries shouldn't be in Liberia at all.

by the way, I went to the gastroenterologist yesterday. I'm having a barium study done so he can see what kind of anatomical issues there are and any structural damage from the parasites. Then I get an upper and lower GI scope. Fun times. Oh, and he wants me to stay off dairy completely for the next month to see if that lessens the symptoms.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Hermoine

Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Hermoine »

SteelHead wrote:Well once we determined that corporate risk for the church is almost zero and that this is evidenced by the church embedding missionaries in Liberia..... What could he say? Any pretense that they care about safety is shown to be null and void.

If your 18 year old son got a call to Monrovia Liberia would you say "sure. Why not?" and head to Mr. Mac, or would you say "hell no!" ?

Did we ever find out if there are state side missionaries actually serving there? Could it be that the missionaries there are all local?
_Maxrep
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Maxrep »

How did the missionaries and person conducting the interview for baptism assess the mental age of the 13 year old child?

That is a really good question. Who would the Elders seek out for such an evaluation? What procedures does the church have in place for this. The listed protocol seems simply vague, and perhaps "vague" is precisely what they had in mind. How do elders, who shoulder the responsibility for evaluating baptismal candidates, go about finding and hiring a mental health professional for evaluation? My guess is that the policy is lip service.

The real problem is not when an active family has a child that has reached the age of 8 who has learning disabilities. In scenarios where the challenged "investigator" comes from a non member family that cannot support their attendance at church or church activities, or deal with the issues that arise at the ward house from the particular youth acting out, then rushing towards baptism is an issue. This is not simply a carpooling problem, but a behavioral/acting out/disability problem. This leaves the members who have activities age children, feeling like they have been strong armed into volunteering for some uncomfortable taxi rides.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
_SteelHead
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _SteelHead »

Hermoine wrote:
SteelHead wrote:Well once we determined that corporate risk for the church is almost zero and that this is evidenced by the church embedding missionaries in Liberia..... What could he say? Any pretense that they care about safety is shown to be null and void.

If your 18 year old son got a call to Monrovia Liberia would you say "sure. Why not?" and head to Mr. Mac, or would you say "hell no!" ?

Did we ever find out if there are state side missionaries actually serving there? Could it be that the missionaries there are all local?


I posted quotes taken straight out of blogs from Americans serving in Liberia.

http://preparetoserve.com/liberia/lds-mission-blogs/

Will take you to a page with links to 5 such blogs
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Mayan Elephant
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Mayan Elephant »

american elder in liberia wrote:life is good :) i am reminded this week that the Lord puts us where we need to be, if we are obedient to his commandments. I will continuously strive to become 100% obedient in all that i do so that i can be where i need to be to serve the Lord, at all times! none of us ever need to worry if we are being obedient to what the Lord asks us to do. We should continue in faith, doing whats right and letting our light shine to all those around us! :)


its good to see the 100 percent obedience thing is still the first principle and ordinance of the mission.

if you were called to liberia, would you be pissed that you were not called to the Kampala Uganda Mission?
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
_Bazooka
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Re: Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries S

Post by _Bazooka »

KevinSim posted his reply elsewhere to a question I posed him on this thread.
I'm copying it here for an illuminating insight into the depth of backup he has for his assertion about what the Church does to ensure missionary safety.

Bazooka wrote:
(On the thread about Missionary safety I asked you to back up your assertion that, "the church bends over backwards to ensure the safety of the missionaries" with specific details of what they actually do that constitutes bending over backwards. Have you responded to that yet?)

KevinSim wrote:No I haven't. With very limited time I'm having a hard time following all the threads I've commented on recently. (Is that "proof positive" that I've "reached the conclusion" that those threads are not "true enough to warrant" my continued participation? ) I don't have any specific details. I just know that everything I've heard about how the LDS Church deals with its missionaries has, over the years, led me to the conclusion that the LDS Church is trying very hard to keep missionaries away from dangerous activities that might threaten their lives.


I don't think it requires further comment from me.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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