Finally Someone Asked the Question..."Are Missionaries Safe"

[_maklelan]

I didn't say that the Church screwed up. I said they were responsible in answer to Kevin's question.

Thanks for clarifying. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

My previous statement about it being important as to whether one missionary is lost or twenty was just that. What I was trying to say is that every life is important.

Agreed.

[_SteelHead]

Mak ,
I lived in "apartments" with no windows in areas with dengue fever. Many had no fridges or stoves. I cooked hamburgers on the bottom of clothes irons. I subsisted on canned meat at times that was basically the equivalent of dog food and bread. I was a travelling assistant in an economy of hyper inflation and no matter how much I budgeted the travel expenses alone chewed up my monthly mission allowance. I didn't spend money from home because my mission president taught that the gringos shouldn't as it was unfair to the locals who were living on the widow's mite. I viewed it at the time as sacrifice for the kingdom. Now I view it as gross negligence in order to save a few bucks.

The church gives very little besides for lip service to the real health and safety of the missionaries. The sister usually have it a bit better, but many of both genders live in substandard conditions, with substandard food, in marginal areas where assault is likely, and piss poor access to health care.

Read runtu's book for an education on the topic.

The beauty is as volunteer missionaries the church can get away with this crap. That more missionaries aren't killed is probably due to rigid rules that keep them away from a big set of "risk" associated with their non missionary peers. Many though, are rewarded for their sacrifice with long term mental or physical health problems.

I will encourage my kids to join the peace corps. a thousand times over before a Mormon mission. At least there is useful service involved.

[_Arrakis]

Yes, and they meet that responsibility to as high a degree as can be expected.

Would you apply your own standard to your claim?...you said:

And on what is this statistic based on? Surely it's not just an assumption you've plucked from your own head.

[_maklelan]

Mak ,
I lived in "apartments" with no windows in areas with dengue fever. Many had no fridges or stoves. I cooked hamburgers on the bottom of clothes irons. I subsisted on canned meat at times that was basically the equivalent of dog food and bread. I was a travelling assistant in an economy of hyper inflation and no matter how much I budgeted the travel expenses alone chewed up my monthly mission allowance. I didn't spend money from home because my mission president taught that the gringos shouldn't as it was unfair to the locals who were living on the widow's mite. I viewed it at the time as sacrifice for the kingdom. Now I view it as gross negligence in order to save a few bucks.

When did you serve and where? You are aware, of course, that your mission president's counsel completely violated the Church's policy.

The church gives very little besides for lip service to the real health and safety of the missionaries.

As someone who worked in the mission offices (I was made the lone financial secretary the day before Uruguay's 2002 financial crisis) and now works in the Church Office Building, I can say with absolute certainty that that's categorically false. I know several people in the missionary department, I work directly with current and former mission presidents, and I have seen how the Brethren care for the Church's missionary force.

The sister usually have it a bit better, but many of both genders live in substandard conditions, with substandard food, in marginal areas where assault is likely, and piss poor access to health care.

Where assault is "likely"? I'd invite you to substantiate that, but you and everyone else here knows you're just making up factoids.

Read runtu's book for an education on the topic.

Yeah, I really could use an education on the way the Church functions.

The beauty is as volunteer missionaries the church can get away with this s***. That more missionaries aren't killed is probably due to rigid rules that keep them away from a big set of "risk" associated with their non missionary peers.

Yeah, that's probably the main reason more missionaries don't die.

Many though, are rewarded for their sacrifice with long term mental or physical health problems.

That originated entirely from the circumstances of their mission? How many cases of that can you document? I work around numerous missionaries who grew up with mental and physical health problems, were still given opportunities to serve missions, and love their experience.

I will encourage my kids to join the peace corps. a thousand times over before a Mormon mission. At least there is useful service involved.

If only those hundreds of thousands of men and women who see their missions as the greatest growing experiences of their entire lives--like me--could be as educated and insightful as you. The Church would surely be fixed then.

[_maklelan]

Would you apply your own standard to your claim?...you said:

Already been taken care of. As has been shown, the facts show men and women on missions suffer far fewer incidents of injury or death than those not serving missions. Despite the rather silly assumptions being made here about how skewed the data are because they doesn't take into account that all missionaries are white former high school quarterbacks/track stars who grew up four wheeling and boating at Deer Creek reservoir (when they weren't skiing at Brighton), missionaries are kept very safe.

[Guest]

Yes mak, because being robbed at gunpoint and knowing of several other missionaries who were robbed at gunpoint is just a made up factoid. Because thieves never removed the tile roof off of our homes, threw all of our posessions into our luggage, leaving us with nothing but the clothes on our backs. Because missionaries weren't routinely relieved of their watches on the bus. Life in the favelas and slums of south america is peachy keen and nice, and god protects his missionaries.

The mission president in Guatemala that was car jacked, robbed and left at the side of the road..... never happened. The one in 94, not the more recent (former president) one in 2010, who was killed.

The living conditions of missionaries in some of Mexico, Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina, most of Peru, Guatemala, and Bolivia, and most of Africa is risky at best, negligent at worst.

Looking back I have the feeling our mission president was under orders to economize, as he was purging out the nicer dwellings, got rid of stoves and refrigerators.... but he did allow, and pay, for blenders.

And yes Mak, those missionaries who developed esoteric illnesses and parasites that impact them the rest of their lives.... Most likely would have got them had they stayed home. Those who develop PTSD from their experiences in the slums. Well, they were predisposed any way.

Get real.

ETA
Would I say I loved my mission.... yes. What does that prove? Nothing. The reality is the majority of Mormon mission work is self serving. The peace corp focuses in helping people have access to the basic necessities, the lds church focuses on converts.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 6bih%3D499

I arrived in country June 1990 precisely two month before the "paquetzo". What happened next was very stunning:

It was a violent shock, in fact, was brutal. The price of gasoline is multiplied by 40, food went to heaven. Wages were initially only be awarded a bonus of 100% of salary for once. The exchange rate was allowed to float and were thought to reach the 400,000 Inti per dollar, while prices realigned economy. However, the strict fiscal management that operated as a daily box where only those resources were spent receiving the government got the exchange rate stabilized at 265,000 Inti per dollar amid growing confidence, capital inflows and incipient recovery.

I lost over 40 lbs in the following six months. It was nothing to get by on boiled water, fried corn (cancha), and a small piece of bread any given day because your money was worthless by the end of the month.

Mr. Mak's hubris is, unfortunately, par for the course where the Church does no wrong, and can never be held liable for anything since ultimately the onus is placed back onto the member. In this case, a 19 year-old kid who couldn't speak or understand Spanish, wasn't allowed to call his family, and was directed to only write home with faith-promoting narratives.

The thing is people like Mr. Mak actually don't give a crap about the missionaries in the field. It's just expected they go, endure hardships, come home with honor and a faithful experience. Anything outside of that context is blame-shifted toward the Elder outside of being murdered. I even knew of Elders who came home early from their missions due to sickness, and there was this subtle cloud of suspicion that hung over them. Did they phone it in? Did they use it as an excuse to quit? Were they faithful enough?

Sure sure... Hundreds of thousands of missionaries have left their families, "fallen in love with the people" of this or that country, and came home with amazing stories of faith.

They had better. Because if you don't...

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

by the way, I didn't love my mission, nor did I fall in love "with the people of Peru". I do feel I got a lot out of the mission experience, but it was through the narrative of a Mormon Yankee in Peru.

It was a brutal experience, with daily abuse (99.9% verbal). It was dirty, hard, unfulfilling work. And we worked our asses off because that's what you do. Lots of "charlas".

I picked up a language that served me well. I visited places I never would've visited. I experienced things I never would've experienced... And it's for those reasons I don't regret my mission.

My letters were faithful. My missionary homecoming was filled with hopeful stories. Nothing but good things were said, because that's how it was and that's what you did. There was, and is, a cultural expectation that's laid from those primary years where the missionary experience is tightly framed, and anything outside of that is disappointing and potentially damaging to peoples' testimonies.

I didn't love it. I experienced it. That's all.

- Doc

[_Craig Paxton]

I'd be curious to know how many of us former missionaries had fellow missionaries from our missions who were either killed or died in the missions we served in?

I had 1 Elder killed on my mission. He was killed in a car accident. His companion was spared. We saw this as a miracle...one called home to heaven to serve a heavenly mission while the other had to linger on earth to finish his earthly mission. The elder that was killed was a good guy...I think about his family often....

[_maklelan]

Yes mak, because being robbed at gunpoint and knowing of several other missionaries who were robbed at gunpoint is just a made up factoid.

There's a difference between missionaries being occasionally robbed at gunpoint and "assault" being "likely."

Because thieves never removed the tile roof off of our homes threw all of our posessions into our luggage, leaving us with nothing but the clothes on our backs. Because missionaries weren't routinely relieved of their watches on the bus. Life in the favelas and slums of south america is peachy keen and nice, and god protects his missionaries.

I understand that you would like to brag about how much you suffered as a missionary, but would you mind answering my question about when and where you served? Things have changed quite a bit in the last couple decades, but at the same time, if missionaries are still wearing watches on buses despite being "relieved" of them just once, much less "routinely," then that's just negligence on the part of the missionaries.

The mission president in Guatemala that was car jacked and robbed and left at the side of the road..... never happened. The one in 94, not the more recent one in 2010.

Two carjackings separated by 16 years? Hopefully we cross checked the data, because that sounds like a pretty troubling pattern. I had a friend in my neighborhood in Boulder during high school who was carjacked more times than that during the course of high school. Maybe you need to email his parents and chew them out for endangering their son by letting him live in Boulder, CO.

The living conditions of missionaries in some of Mexico, Brazil and Argentina, most of Peru, Guatemala, and Bolivia, and most of Africa is risky at best, negligent at worst.

I know returned missionaries, members, and current colleagues from all these areas (one was in Ghana last month and is currently traveling from the jungles of Guatemala to Nepal), and that's simply not true. It's not a middle-class American living, but they don't take risks with bad areas. You may have heard the occasional horror story, but that hardly indicates a pattern.

Looking back I have the feeling our mission president was under orders to economize,

By telling his missionaries not to spend money from home?

as he was purging out the nicer dwellings, got rid of stoves and refrigerators, but he did allow blenders.

How long ago was this?

And yes Mak, those missionaries who developed esoteric illnesses and parasites that impact them the rest of their lives most likely would have got them had they stayed home.

So now you're not talking about mental health, but just "esoteric illnesses and parasites"? Have you abandoned the notion that missions habitually scar missionaries emotionally, and are now just hoping to capitalize on the few missionaries who suffer long term health issues from parasites and "esoteric illnesses." I guess you can't really stack up enough of the former to challenge the hundreds of thousands of missionaries who see their missions as the defining and most character-building events of their early lives. Your rhetoric is having to be twisted into unrecognizable shape just to maintain support of your claims. By all means, continue to try to sound condescending and confident. Certainly you're fooling someone out there.

Those who develop PTSD from their experiences in the slums, well they were predisposed any way.

Ah, here come the claims of emotional damage. I'd love to see your documentation of this. I served in cantegriles in multiple areas in Montevideo, along with dozens of other missionaries from my time in the country. I keep up with most of them, and so far not a one has reported any PTSD symptoms of any kind, even the ones who got robbed (and the one who got an infection on his face that swelled up to the size of a baseball). Of course, they may just be keeping it all a secret from everyone but you.

Get real.

Ha.

[quote="SteelHead"]ETA
Would I say I loved my mission.... yes. What does that prove? Nothing. The reality is the majority of Mormon mission work is self serving. The peace corp focuses in helping people have access to the basic necessities, the lds church focuses on converts.

There are plenty of service missionaries out there, and service hours for proselytizing missionaries are being increased currently. I tried to focus as much as I could on pure service as a missionary, and I was never criticized or condemned for it.