Every now and then Rock hits one out of the park

[Guest]

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2013/ ... e.html?m=1

What? Mormon prophets make stuff up?

And I followed Rock right up to the point where he asserted that some folk in mormondom have had actual visits from angelic beings. He ignores the obvious implication that perhaps all of the prophets are liars about such experiences.

[_honorentheos]

I thought this was particularly interesting:

Wilford Woodruff was a prodigious journal keeper who wrote in his diary almost daily. He was thoughtful enough to leave us 31 separate volumes describing his life and experiences. That makes it a simple task for interested scholars to simply go back and read what Woodruff wrote at the time he claimed to have had that miraculous visitation from the founders. Oddly, Woodruff's journal entry for August 19, 1877 contains no mention of the miraculous event he would later relate in public:

“I spent the evening in preparing a list of the noted men of the 17 century and 18th, including the signers of the Declaration of Independence and presidents of the United States, for baptism on Tuesday the 21 Aug 1877.”
And his entry for Tuesday, August 21st:

“I, Wilford Woodruff, went to the temple of the Lord this morning and was baptized for 100 persons who were dead, including the signers of the Declaration of Independence.… I was baptized for the following names.”
He then listed the names of 100 men. The baptisms were performed by J.D.T. McCallister, who was a counselor in the temple presidency. Woodruff's journal entry for the 21st continues:


"When Br. McAllister had baptized me for the 100 names, I baptized him for 21, including Gen. Washington and his forefathers and all the presidents of the United States that were not on my list except Buchanan, Van Buren, and Grant. [5] It was a very interesting day. I felt thankful that we had the privilege and the power to administer for the worthy dead, especially for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, that inasmuch as they had laid the foundation of our Government, that we could do as much for them as they had done for us."

Yet the way Woodruff told the story publicly a month later, the founders appeared to him as a group and berated him for not seeing to their baptisms whereupon he "straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers." No mention of waiting until Tuesday. Of course, Woodruff was unaware that Brothers Church and Bernhisel had already performed those baptisms in the endowment house, and for some reason the founders didn't bother to mention that little detail.

[_honorentheos]

As a side note, I taught family history in a ward for a few years. As part of the class, I would offer to meet the class members at the family history library and help them apply what was being taught. There is something kind of sad in seeing a member of the church realize, for the first time, that the record keeping that pertains to temple ordinances is completely haphazard and prone to errors. The memory of one sister's reaction stands out to me. It was like that of a child being hurt by someone they trusted when she realized that the records of some of her family were completely wrong.

[_SteelHead]

In some ways Rock reminds me of Bushman. To on heavily invested in belief to follow some of the ideas he raises to their full logical conclusion.

[_ludwigm]

some folk in mormondom have had actual visits from angelic beings.

By default, I don't believe in such visitations.
Dead people (especially neverexisted ones, see D&C 110 - Elias...) don't appear. Deads are dead. Their "spirits" is not detectable by any scientific way - that is, don't exist.

... are liars about such experiences.

Sometimes, I can forgive them.

Many times - I can say too many times - I dream about discomfortable things. Not the typical nightmares, as hunted by monsters and such.

For example I am out of time. I run, snatch - but I will be late. I know that. As a regular soldier, it was a real fear. No leaders liked the late-comers... Today, as a pensioned, I can not be late.
Or I am before the class, and I am not prepared. I don't know what to say, I don't know even the course, the subject. Real fear again...

In those dreams the performers are vivid, imaginable, act as real. And their actions take effect on me. If I can awake in the midst of such, my blood pressure is 20-30 higher than normal (You know, in my age people measure it ...).

Does this transform my dreams to real visitations by long dead commandants, long dead family members or long dead whoever?
Maybe if I were a prophet, seer (seer of visions) etc, I could create good faith-promoting stories out of my mere dreams.

[_beastie]

Does this transform my dreams to real visitations by long dead commandants, long dead family members or long dead whoever?
Maybe if I were a prophet, seer (seer of visions) etc, I could create good faith-promoting stories out of my mere dreams.

The Book of Mormon verifies that's exactly what they do.

1 Nephi 8:2

2 And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Does this transform my dreams to real visitations by long dead commandants, long dead family members or long dead whoever?
Maybe if I were a prophet, seer (seer of visions) etc, I could create good faith-promoting stories out of my mere dreams.

The Book of Mormon verifies that's exactly what they do.

1 Nephi 8:2

2 And it came to pass that while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision.

I'm sorry. I just can't tell if that's a tight or loose translation, mere opinion of a man captured through divine revelation, literalism or a metaphor.

It's all just so confusing! Where an apologist when you need him?

- Doc

[_beastie]

I'm sorry. I just can't tell if that's a tight or loose translation, mere opinion of a man captured through divine revelation, literalism or a metaphor.

It's all just so confusing! Where an apologist when you need him?

- Doc

No doubt it's loose and slutty, and needs to be discarded.

[_mostlygizzards]

This is one of many articles and that opened the door to my wife and I questioning the truthfulness of the church.

[_Some Schmo]

"I baptize dead people..."