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Water Dog wrote:I find it intriguing that critics of the church are so hell bent on "the church" being bad or wrong. You guys argue against my thoughts on the WOW more passionately that active LDS members do! I've found members in the church to mostly be receptive of my thoughts on the WOW. They go home and ponder them and come back thanking me later for giving them a new perspective. And this goes back to a comment I made on another thread, that most critics [of the church] are not interested in truth but have ulterior motives. Even if you disagree with the truth of the church, if you were "truth seekers" I would expect you to applaud my take on the WOW. Hey, maybe those Mormons aren't so bad, maybe they're not the lemmings we think they are. Maybe there is hope for them yet. Instead you want to excommunicate me from a church you say you don't even believe in, lol.

I find it intriguing that when apologists are forced to confront the logical consequences of their rationalizing, they attack the critics. That leads me to conclude that most apologists are not interested in truth but have ulterior motives. Even if you disagree with the falsity of the church, if you were a truth seeker, I would expect you to applaud our our criticism of your attempt to rationalize the WOW with your own conduct. Hey maybe critics aren't so bad -- maybe they can help spot flaws in my reasoning. Maybe they don't all just "hate the church." Maybe there is hope for them yet.

Water Dog wrote:

Equality wrote:Harry Reid has nothing to do with the conversation.

He has everything to do with the conversation.

Did Harry Reid break the word of wisdom? I did a quick google search and didn't find anything. What's going on with Harry Reid?

Word of Wisdom - the wheat problem....

May already have been answered in the last four pages but just in case, the correct answer is that the WoW was not given by commandment but certain aspects have been turned into commandments and some added. The wheat/grain aspect has not been turned into a commandment.

The overall lesson I get out of it is that the WoW is a model; that we should be looking out for our health. No rationalizations here, just following the doctrine.

bcspace wrote:
May already have been answered in the last four pages but just in case, the correct answer is that the WoW was not given by commandment but certain aspects have been turned into commandments and some added. The wheat/grain aspect has not been turned into a commandment.

The overall lesson I get out of it is that the WoW is a model; that we should be looking out for our health. No rationalizations here, just following the doctrine.

That approach seems reasonable. You are or were a bishop, right? (Sorry if I'm mixing you up with someone else.) When you ask the WOW question in a temple recommend interview, are you really asking if the person is keeping the portions of the WOW that have been turned into commandments plus the added commandments?

Water Dog wrote:
There is not a man on earth with the authority to create or turn anything into commandments. Men can only receive commandments through revelation.

Are you arguing with me or with BCSpace? He said that part of the WOW had changed from advice to commandments (and that some had been added), and I asked him how that related to the temple recommend interview.

Water Dog wrote:
Not arguing with anybody, simply putting that point out there. If a new commandment has been revealed that says alcohol in any form is bad or anything with the English word "tea" is bad, I'd really love to see that revelation. What official declaration is that posted under? Some leader can't simply say, "oh, well, we've decided that the WOW is now a commandment, yeah, and, the WOW means whatever we think it should mean."

If you're saying that commandments by your prophets are limited to "official declarations," then you are arguing with BCSpace. Take it up with him.

Water Dog wrote:Some leader can't simply say, "oh, well, we've decided that the WOW is now a commandment, yeah, and, the WOW means whatever we think it should mean."

But that's exactly what happened. The revelation prohibits "hot drinks". Does that mean hot chocolate and hot cider are prohibited? No. Why not? Because some leaders got together and decided that "hot drinks" means coffee and tea.

Equality wrote:I understand what you are saying, and it does reflect the conventional wisdom. Many doctors and nutrition consultants agree with you. A growing number do not. And a growing body of evidence suggests to me that wheat is not as harmless, and certainly not as healthy, as we have all been told over the past half century.

Nutritionists can't agree on anything. Do you remember back when the new fad and consensus was "8 full glasses of water" per day? Later, they realized that most people were literally flushing their vitamins and nutrients down the drain. Later the geniuses decided that we should "drink water when you are thirsty."

I agree with some other posters here that if you are tying to argue on this forum that "whole wheat" is the problem with the American diet, then you are just grasping for straws and excuses just to try and criticize the LDS religion. Processed gluten, which has been over used in food products, is extracted from the wheat and used in processed foods for bulk.

As for the allergy, it is not a true allergy, but instead classified as an "intolerance" and about 1 in 133 people in developed nations have intolerance to gluten. (Another study estimates between 0.5 and 1.0 percent of people in the US.)

So again, if one is attempting to use "gluten" as an argument against the LDS church, ... time for that person to get a new hobby, get out of the great and spacious building, and get some fresh air.

-7up

DarkHelmet wrote: But that's exactly what happened. The revelation prohibits "hot drinks". Does that mean hot chocolate and hot cider are prohibited? No. Why not? Because some leaders got together and decided that "hot drinks" means coffee and tea.

My feeling from the WoW relates to substances with addictive properties. I have seen people go through DT symptoms without their morning cup of coffee. I am not talking about a psychological addiction, but actual physical withdrawal symptoms.

Most people who drink daily coffee, willingly admit that it affects them.

Furthermore, as one who has an alcoholic brother and friends from high school whose lives have been destroyed, I cannot deny that saints who have lived the word of wisdom throughout their lives have been blessed.

I find it amazing that there are people here who are willing to deny it.

-7up

Hey Wd,
Where is the revelation by which the WOW went from recommendation to commandment and where/when did the prohibition against beer enter the canon?