DarkHelmet wrote: But that's exactly what happened. The revelation prohibits "hot drinks". Does that mean hot chocolate and hot cider are prohibited? No. Why not? Because some leaders got together and decided that "hot drinks" means coffee and tea.
My feeling from the WoW relates to substances with addictive properties. I have seen people go through DT symptoms without their morning cup of coffee. I am not talking about a psychological addiction, but actual physical withdrawal symptoms.
Most people who drink daily coffee, willingly admit that it affects them.
Uh...yeah. It's called caffeine. This is not a new breakthrough. Caffeine is addictive, and there are withdrawal symptoms associated with it. Coffee has caffeine in it. That's why people like to get their morning cup of coffee to kick start the day. And that's why people are cranky when they haven't had their coffee.
But caffeine is not against the word of wisdom. Obeying the WoW will not prevent caffeine addiction.
Furthermore, as one who has an alcoholic brother and friends from high school whose lives have been destroyed, I cannot deny that saints who have lived the word of wisdom throughout their lives have been blessed.
I find it amazing that there are people here who are willing to deny it.
-7up
I don't think anyone on this thread denies alcoholism is a serious issue. But having a glass of wine for dinner is a completely different issue than alcoholism.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
I am with Equality on the wheat issue. While the conventional nutritional advice to date is that whole grains are good, the emerging research in this area is not backing up the conventional wisdom. I have seen enough to convince me to cut wheat as well as sugar, and my health has improved drastically since.
My TBM mother acknowledges the research and recently cut out the two litres of fruit juice she was chugging every day (dropping 7 kilos in the past 2 months!) but she refuses to cut wheat precisely because her scriptures tell her it is good for her.
DarkHelmet wrote:Uh...yeah. It's called caffeine. This is not a new breakthrough. ...
But caffeine is not against the word of wisdom. Obeying the WoW will not prevent caffeine addiction.
The existence of caffeine and its relation to things like coffee was not well known in the 19th century. ... In the 19th century people didn't have ... chemistry labs, hence a simple piece of advice - avoid the coffee and tea. The scriptures are meant to be understood through the spirit.
Caffeine was not well known in the nineteenth century, and there were no chemistry labs?
Where is Water Dog pulling this stuff from? (Yes, but let's not not say, since this is a nice board with no rude words allowed.)
In 1819, the German chemist Friedlieb Ferdinand Runge isolated relatively pure caffeine for the first time; he called it "Kaffebase" (i.e., a base that exists in coffee).[164] In 1821, caffeine was isolated both by French chemist Pierre Jean Robiquet and by another pair of French chemists, Pierre-Joseph Pelletier and Joseph Bienaimé Caventou, according to Swedish chemist Jöns Jacob Berzelius in his yearly journal. Furthermore, Berzelius stated that the French chemists had made their discoveries independently of any knowledge of Runge's or each other's work.[165] However, Berzelius later acknowledged Runge's priority in the extraction of caffeine, stating:[166] "However, at this point, it should not remain unmentioned that Runge (in his Phytochemical Discoveries, 1820, pages 146–147) specified the same method and described caffeine under the name Caffeebase a year earlier than Robiquet, to whom the discovery of this substance is usually attributed, having made the first oral announcement about it at a meeting of the Pharmacy Society in Paris." According to Runge, he did this at the behest of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.[167][168]
This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Spanner wrote:I am with Equality on the wheat issue. While the conventional nutritional advice to date is that whole grains are good, the emerging research in this area is not backing up the conventional wisdom. I have seen enough to convince me to cut wheat as well as sugar, and my health has improved drastically since.
My TBM mother acknowledges the research and recently cut out the two litres of fruit juice she was chugging every day (dropping 7 kilos in the past 2 months!) but she refuses to cut wheat precisely because her scriptures tell her it is good for her.
Holy crap, two liters of fruit juice a day? That's a ton of sugar.
by the way, I agree that many people eat too many carbs in their diet, and not just processed sugar. If you eat a diet dominated by bread, for instance, that's too many carbs. I'd say a person can eat too much wheat, and such a person would likely benefit from toning it down a little. But to eliminate wheat altogether in the belief that any wheat is bad for us I think is misguided.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
SteelHead wrote:Says the man whose scripture notes that the WOW is a counsel and not a commandment, except it now is..... Not commanded in all things indeed.
So weird that actual 'counsel' can keep one from getting a temple recommend.
SteelHead wrote:Hey Wd, Where is the revelation by which the WOW went from recommendation to commandment and where/when did the prohibition against beer enter the canon?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
So in other words, it's not a commandment, but a policy?
There is no way you read that article, nor any way any reasonable person could get that as the takeaway from the article. Clearly, you will take any evidence and assert that it supports your preconceived conclusion. You don't even have to bother to examine the evidence. Pathetic.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Water Dog wrote:If someone is striving to follow the WOW to its fullest, to follow the spirit of the law, which is what I'm arguing, and they approaching the WOW in a studious and prayerful way, it's reasonable to conclude that caffeine is not in keeping with the WOW and this is precisely why it had been interpreted as a "hot" drink.
I think you guys have a really hard time with a lot of these issues because you seriously just don't comprehend the gospel, which revolves around revelation, first and foremost, PERSONAL revelation. In the 19th century people didn't have the internet or chemistry labs, hence a simple piece of advice - avoid the coffee and tea. The scriptures are meant to be understood through the spirit.
The problem is people like you interpreted the ban on hot drinks to mean caffeine. It became folk doctrine that caffeine is against the WoW, but that was simply not true. What is the point in having prophets to interpret doctrine when members can interpret their own doctrines that spread and become folk doctrines?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Water Dog wrote: This however is different than there being a letter-of-the-law commandment that "thou shalt not" ever drink anything which has the English label "tea" on the package. The WOW is no such commandment and never has been.
Yet it will prevent one from getting baptized in the Mormon church, and exclude them from the temple.
The last i knew, baptism, temple endowment and temple marriage are still required for exaltation?
So it's not a commandment, but you cannot inherent the Celestial Kingdom if you don't follow it?
WTF? The LDS church is more messed up than I realized.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson