Word of Wisdom - the wheat problem....

[_DarkHelmet]

Has there ever been a question, "do you drink Coke?" in the TR interview? No. Caffeine IS bad for you. Or at the very least it CAN be bad for you. It's a substance that you should understand, putting the good and bad into context so that it's used properly. I don't see how this is folk doctrine. What's folk doctrine is the thought that anything called "tea" is against the WOW without respect to what its ingredients actually are.

I agree with you that caffeine is not healthy, especially to the extent that many people abuse it, and it is addictive and a difficult habit to quit. We agree on caffeine. So if caffeine is not healthy, and is addictive with uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms, why do church leaders specifically state that caffeine use does NOT violate the WoW, but coffee does? Here is a a recent quote from lds newsroom in response to the NBC Rock Center story on Mormons:

“Despite what was reported, the Church revelation spelling out health practices (Doctrine and Covenants 89) does not mention the use of caffeine. The Church’s health guidelines prohibits alcoholic drinks, smoking or chewing of tobacco, and “hot drinks” — taught by Church leaders to refer specifically to tea and coffee.”

So as you can see the only substances on the banned list are coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol. The church newsroom went out of its way to specify that caffeine is NOT part of the WoW. Folk doctrines are popular beliefs that are not actually official doctrine. Claiming caffeine is against the WoW is a folk doctrine.

The ironic thing is, you are actually closer to the critics in hwo you believe the WoW should be practiced. I think we all believe the WoW should be a general and flexible guideline for living a healthy lifestyle. You seem to have adapted the WoW to be just that. But don't come here and tell us that that's how the church enforces it. Most people here were Mormons at one time, and we know exactly how the WoW is enforced.

[_Spanner]

My parents used to drink decaffeinated coffee and coke was the devil's drink. Now my mother will drink an "energy" drink to help cope with teaching seminary at 6am, but won't go near decaf.

What is the situation with decaffeinated coffee in the moridor? Were people drinking it before the coke/pepsi announcement? The announcement had the effect of banning decaffeinated coffee here.

[_Chap]

Caffeine was not well known in the nineteenth century, and there were no chemistry labs?...This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Chap is his usual form, misrepresenting what people say and even now Wikipedia to turn the 19th century into Star Trek. Yes, back in the 19th century there was a guy who had discovered caffeine. Your point? Where was the internet? Or the telephones for that matter that this knowledge was known by more than this one guy? While you're at it, where were the microscopes, other modern instruments, case studies, and other research which determined WTF caffeine even is and conclusively established that it's addictive and part of coffee and other substances consumed by men at that time.

You do not understand the concept of CONTEXT

The poor guy is just flailing about: Lord know what kind of place he thinks the 19th century was.

WD told us earlier that the WoW could not have forbidden caffeine because nobody knew about it. I pointed out that caffeine was identified as the main active principle in coffee early in the 19th c., by both German and French chemists ( who were in keen competition).

Look, chemistry was a rapidly developing modern science in that period, and increasingly sophisticated print media popularized scientific knowledge to an increasingly literate population. Yes, information was available before the internet, imagine that!

The identification of the caffeine molecule did not require microscopy: but if it had, microscopes were invented in the 17th century, and had been used to identify the spermatozoa, red blood cells and first micro-organisms by the end of that century. The past was not an intellectual desert.

[_Equality]

Claiming caffeine is against the WoW is a folk doctrine.

And Gordon B. Hinckley said it on national TV in an interview with Mike Wallace. In listing the prohibited things, Mike Wallace said "no caffeine" and Hinckley responded in the affirmative. And, of course, BYU does not sell caffeinated beverages. So where do Mormons get the idea that caffeine is something to be avoided? Who is responsible for the prevalence of this "folk doctrine" among the Mormon population? Maybe if BYU sold Coke at the Wilk and if Hinckley had corrected Wallace on the matter, the "folk doctrine" would not remain so persistent.

[_Equality]

I understand what you are saying, and it does reflect the conventional wisdom. Many doctors and nutrition consultants agree with you. A growing number do not. And a growing body of evidence suggests to me that wheat is not as harmless, and certainly not as healthy, as we have all been told over the past half century.

Nutritionists can't agree on anything. Do you remember back when the new fad and consensus was "8 full glasses of water" per day? Later, they realized that most people were literally flushing their vitamins and nutrients down the drain. Later the geniuses decided that we should "drink water when you are thirsty."

I agree with some other posters here that if you are tying to argue on this forum that "whole wheat" is the problem with the American diet, then you are just grasping for straws and excuses just to try and criticize the LDS religion. Processed gluten, which has been over used in food products, is extracted from the wheat and used in processed foods for bulk.

As for the allergy, it is not a true allergy, but instead classified as an "intolerance" and about 1 in 133 people in developed nations have intolerance to gluten. (Another study estimates between 0.5 and 1.0 percent of people in the US.)

So again, if one is attempting to use "gluten" as an argument against the LDS church, ... time for that person to get a new hobby, get out of the great and spacious building, and get some fresh air.

-7up

Your facts are wrong. And no one is arguing that gluten alone is the problem with overconsumption of wheat products. I said just the opposite, in fact, and linked to books that have been written on the subject covering the latest scientific findings. These books were not written by people trying to poke holes in the Word of Wisdom; I don't even know if they have ever heard of the obscure health protocols of an insignificant religious sect. If you want to believe that Dr. Perlmutter is simply an anti-Mormon grasping at straws to try to discredit the Word of Wisdom, feel free. I think you're delusional. Maybe you should lay off the wheat and sugar; it seems it may be affecting your brain.

[_Equality]

Has there ever been a question, "do you drink Coke?" in the TR interview? No.

I have been asked that question in more than one TR interview. I was never denied a TR for drinking Coke, but I have been asked.

[_mentalgymnast]

Has there ever been a question, "do you drink Coke?" in the TR interview? No.

I have been asked that question in more than one TR interview. I was never denied a TR for drinking Coke, but I have been asked.

I think that what WD is trying to get across is that this same principle applies to HIS interpretation of the WofW in regards to "ale" and slightly fermented beverages. I don't see his POV becoming widespread among church members, but OTOH, I can see where he is coming from. To throw him under the bus and call him, in essence, unfaithful or disobedient shows the fundamentalist viewpoints that, unfortunately, we've grown up with because of the interpretive actions of leaders who have had their own proclivities and cultural baggage. Water Dog is saying, I think, that in many cases those leaders, nowadays, that are giving TR interviews are allowing for individual interpretation of the "principle with a promise". He himself has said that wine and strong drinks are against his interpretation of the WofW. Most leaders would readily agree. If he went into a TR interview proclaiming his use of the same, he might be questioned further and with a bit of push back that could lead to a non-renewal of his TR. But if he's able to wisely and with good reasoning explain why he uses low alchohol content ale and other slightly fermented beverages and/or foods, and can do so with sound reasoning that appeals to the wisdom of his leaders, all is well.

Wish him well. Don't try and make his life miserable.

Regards,
MG

[_krose]

Go visit a ward in Japan, they all drink tea!!!!! They will have discussions among themselves about which teas may or may not be against the WOW, but every single darn one of them drinks some version of "tea."

Things must have changed drastically in the Japanese church since I was there, because that was certainly NOT my experience. We lost a lot of potential converts when we got to the WoW lesson and told them they had to give up their tea. That was often the deal breaker.

I would be interested in comparing the experiences of others who were there, such as Consiglieri, Tarski and Dr Shades.

Of course you could be talking about "mugi-cha," the hot beverage made from barley, which was often substituted for actual ocha, specifically for the purpose of complying with church rules. Calling that foul stuff "tea" for word of wisdom purposes is a stretch, unless your definition includes any hot beverage with some vegetation steeped in it.

[_krose]

Also, when you refer to "Nato," I assume you mean nattō (なっとう). If so, I can't see any reference to alcohol in it. Can you provide one? In the Nutrition Data information I saw, it says this: "Alcohol 0.0g"

Of course, it would take some serious convolutions to associate the consumption of a food containing a trace of alcohol with "strong drink." Then again, such discussions naturally result from an absolute prohibition of any substance.

[_krose]

They can watch me feed my children Kombucha, which is alcoholic (around 2-3%), to my kids when they come over for dinner.

If these content numbers are accurate, it's not just a WoW issue. You could actually be prosecuted in many states for providing an alcoholic beverage to a minor.

Some states specifically allow parents to provide alcoholic beverages to their own children. Not mine.