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grindael wrote:Boyd K. Packer gave this interesting quote:

Young people, learn to use moderation and common sense in matters of health and nutrition, and particularly in medication. Avoid being extreme or fanatical or becoming a faddist.

For example, the Word of Wisdom counsels us to eat meat sparingly (see D&C 89:12). Lest someone become extreme, we are told in another revelation that “whoso forbiddeth to [eat meat] is not ordained of God” (D&C 49:18).

nteresting that "[eat meat]" has been inserted where the phrase "abstain from meats" appears in the original revelation.

Eat meat ≠ abstain from meats

7up?

grindael wrote:Boyd K. Packer gave this interesting quote:

Young people, learn to use moderation and common sense in matters of health and nutrition, and particularly in medication. Avoid being extreme or fanatical or becoming a faddist.

For example, the Word of Wisdom counsels us to eat meat sparingly (see D&C 89:12). Lest someone become extreme, we are told in another revelation that “whoso forbiddeth to [eat meat] is not ordained of God” (D&C 49:18).

TrashcanMan79 wrote:Interesting that "[eat meat]" has been inserted where the phrase "abstain from meats" appears in the original revelation.

Eat meat ≠ abstain from meats

D&C 49, with full context:

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

As usual, the Lord's prose skills are not at a high level. But if we read the full context, with the verses 19, 20 and 21, it is clear that this revelation is telling us that meat should be consumed sparingly - since although nature is bounteous (19), people should not try to seize an undue share of it (20), and they should certainly not kill without need, or waste the meat gained by the killing of animals (21).

There is no way that this revelation can be taken as contradicting or softening the injunction that meat should only be eaten sparingly.

A high-protein diet during middle age could make you almost twice as likely to die early and four times more likely to die of cancer, a study has suggested.

Researchers from the University of Southern Carolina found those between the age of 50 and 65 who ate large amounts of protein were 74% more likely to die of any cause within the study period.

They also found those with a diet rich in animal proteins were four times more likely to die of cancer than someone with a low-protein diet - a mortality risk factor comparable to smoking - and several times more likely to die of diabetes.

But the study, which tracked 6,318 adults over the age of 50 for almost 20 years, goes on to suggest a moderate protein intake could be good for those over the age of 65.

Those behind the research, published in journal Cell Metabolism , said protein controls the growth hormone IGF-I, which has been linked to cancer.

Corresponding author Professor Valter Longo said: "Almost everyone is going to have a cancer cell or pre-cancer cell in them at some point. The question is: Does it progress?"

"Turns out one of the major factors in determining if it does is protein intake."

Co-author Eileen Crimmins said IGF-I levels fell dramatically after the age of 65, so a healthy diet at one age may be damaging at another.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/meat-cheese-bad-smoking-042201399.html

Bazooka wrote:
Eat meat ≠ abstain from meats

7up?

The footnote on D&C 49: 18 says that "forbiddeth" was "biddeth to abstain".

So does that mean that verse 18 actually says, "And whoso biddeth to abstain from abstaining from meats,... is not ordained of God?"

I am not sure because there are many instances in the scriptures where a footnote is placed on one particular word, but the note refers to a phrase in the verse. I'd like to see the original hand written manuscript. Nevertheless, I think the context is revealing because the very next verse says:

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

There is no way that you can argue that the passage is teaching that we must not eat meat. If you have doubts when reading verse 18, ... well just keep reading the till you get to the next verse.

Then you have the context historically:

Some Shakers also forbade the eating of meat. In prefacing this revelation, Joseph Smith’s history states, “In order to have [a] more perfect understanding on the subject, I inquired of the Lord, and received the following.” The revelation refutes some of the basic concepts of the Shaker group.

I think we can gather the following about God's intentions for us in the scriptures:

1) He has made animals for our use, for both clothing and food.
2) We shouldn't kill animals with no reason or be wasteful about it (see verse 21)
3) We should eat meat sparingly

Note: We are physiologically designed as omnivores, however, if one chooses to be a vegetarian, then that is fine as long as you find alternatives which satisfy our physiological needs and as long as you don't judge others for being ... well ... omnivores.

-7up

seven7up wrote:I think we can gather the following about God's intentions for us in the scriptures:

1) He has made animals for our use, for both clothing and food.
2) We shouldn't kill animals with no reason or be wasteful about it (see verse 21)
3) We should eat meat sparingly[/qote]

I agree!
Now all we need to do is define what the word 'sparingly' means in terms of meat consumption.....

Note: We are physiologically designed as omnivores, however, if one chooses to be a vegetarian, then that is fine as long as you find alternatives which satisfy our physiological needs and as long as you don't judge others for being ... well ... omnivores.

-7up

Are we?
Have we always been that way?
Can you think of why physiological omnivores would have need of an appendix?

seven7up wrote:I think we can gather the following about God's intentions for us in the scriptures:

1) He has made animals for our use, for both clothing and food.
2) We shouldn't kill animals with no reason or be wasteful about it (see verse 21)
3) We should eat meat sparingly

Bazooka wrote:I agree!
Now all we need to do is define what the word 'sparingly' means in terms of meat consumption.....

We don't need to define it generally.

We have the principle, now we must act according to the dictates of our own individual conscience.

seven7up wrote: We are physiologically designed as omnivores, however, if one chooses to be a vegetarian, then that is fine as long as you find alternatives which satisfy our physiological needs and as long as you don't judge others for being ... well ... omnivores.

Bazooka wrote:Are we?

Yes.

Bazooka wrote:Have we always been that way?
Can you think of why physiological omnivores would have need of an appendix?

Doesn't matter.

-7up

seven7up wrote:I think we can gather the following about God's intentions for us in the scriptures:

1) He has made animals for our use, for both clothing and food.
2) We shouldn't kill animals with no reason or be wasteful about it (see verse 21)
3) We should eat meat sparingly

Bazooka wrote:I agree!
Now all we need to do is define what the word 'sparingly' means in terms of meat consumption.....

seven7up wrote:
We don't need to define it generally.

We have the principle, now we must act according to the dictates of our own individual conscience.

Have a look at this chart.

http://chartsbin.com/view/12730

It shows the current Current Worldwide Annual Meat Consumption per capita.

The USA has the highest per capita consumption of meat in the world: 120.2 kg per person, as opposed to (for instance) France at 86.7 kg per person, and Japan at 45.9 kg per person. (All developed countries, of course, so as to avoid unrealistic comparisons.)


Is it likely that the average American would qualify as eating meat 'sparingly', do you think? Do Mormons eat less meat than the average American?

seven7up wrote:

grindael wrote:Contrast to what Paul taught,

Hold up. Are you saying that Paul would encourage people to use alcohol, tobacco and other habit forming substances?

-7up

Why would you use the word "encourage" here? What Paul said about what we eat or drink was,

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

He then added,

"Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Colossians 2:20-23, emphasis mine)

The New Covenant was all about he spiritual, not the law. Therefore, we are left to judge for ourselves, but we are not to command others. Going back to Titus, we read:

“1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us. 9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.” (Titus 2)

Remember what Smith himself said,

“For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. “Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; “For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. “But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned” (D&C 58:26-29).

That is why the original WOW was given as advice. The Utah Hierarchy changed that, so they could control the membership. They wanted the members to have more money for tithing to line their own pockets and continue their "prophetic" agenda, that benefited themselves more than anyone else.

“2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.” (Romans 14)

And...

“13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”

The Mormon Hierarchy reject Paul’s direct admonition to ‘keep these things between themselves and God’, by making the Word of Wisdom a forced regulation that one must be held accountable for, and confess to a ‘bishop’ if they break it, and therefore be denied blessings that are (according to them) essential for their very salvation. They miss the point that Paul taught, that we are justified by the Spirit, and that ‘whoever has doubt, (and one may have that with tobacco, or liquor, or other things – but not all do) and do so against their faith, then they are in sin, for as Paul states: ‘that which does not come from faith is sin’.

What would Paul say? Now you know.

All this back & forth and the nit picking for a word.

L-d$,inc members trying to justify all this are worse than Bill Clinton and 'it depends on what the meaning of is, is".

Legalistic and tortured mental gymnastics and justifications to get around what the language of this so-called 'revelation' says... certainly makes moronicPriesthood types look stupid.

ZelphtheGreat wrote:All this back & forth and the nit picking for a word.

L-d$,inc members trying to justify all this are worse than Bill Clinton and 'it depends on what the meaning of is, is".

Legalistic and tortured mental gymnastics and justifications to get around what the language of this so-called 'revelation' says... certainly makes moronicPriesthood types look stupid.

This is the result of redundant and stupid forced regulations.