New Essay: Book of Mormon And DNA Studies

[_Tim the Enchanter]

Actually we don't have to know anything about Lehite, Jaredite or Mulekite DNA to determine if there were foreign intrusions in the DNA of the indigenous populations at the time the immigrations were supposed to happen. If I understand Simon Southerton correctly, it is possible to ascertain if any foreign intrusions at all occurred. If none are present in the time frames claimed, it does not matter what Lehite DNA is supposed to look like anyways since no new DNA appeared in the local population at the correct time.

If that's the case, even better. I admit I'm not a genetic expert. But nor am I a dodo. I've read some things.

[_son of Ishmael]

My thoughts.

Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples

Why not? We know where Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from and at what time and we know about the genetic makeup of people from that particular time and place. The Book of Mormon even identifies Lehi's ancestry.

The Book of Mormon provides little direct information about cultural contact between the peoples it describes and others who may have lived nearby.

Little? It contains none. The text states that the land was purposely left empty by God so Lehi's family would have the land as their inheritance.

The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied.

Bullcrap. 2 Nephi 1:8-9 contradict this statement.  "And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever."

Finding and clearly identifying their DNA today may be asking more of the science of population genetics than it is capable of providing.

If the science isn't settled, why back track the introduction to state that the Lamanites are "among" the ancestors of the Native Americans?

Genetic variations are introduced through what geneticists call random mutation.

I wish they would have said 'so called' random mutation. Hehe.

Even if geneticists had a database of the DNA that now exists among all modern American Indian groups, it would be impossible to know exactly what to search for.

Why can't they search for the type of DNA that existed at the time and place that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from?

It is possible that each member of the emigrating parties described in the Book of Mormon had DNA typical of the Near East, but it is likewise possible that some of them carried DNA more typical of other regions.

What is the possibility that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek had DNA that did not look like the DNA from the other people in time and place they came from? I think they use the word "possibility" here because they don't want to talk "probability."

The effect of drift is especially pronounced in small, isolated populations or in cases where a small group carrying a distinct genetic profile intermingles with a much larger population of a different lineage.

So were the Jaredites, Lehites, and Mulekites supposed to have existed in small, isolated areas or are they supposed to have intermingled with the people that were already here (that the Book of Mormon says didn't exist). Also, earlier they said the distinct genetic profile was "possible." Now, the article acts like it's a given.

Much as critics and defenders of the Book of Mormon would like to use DNA studies to support their views

I love how they act like they are taking to task defenders of the Book of Mormon too. The truth is, they don't want members getting into the DNA debate at all. They want the members to forget about the DNA issue. That's why they act like they are harping on Book of Mormon defenders too. This sends a signal to the members that studying the issue is a waste of their time and that they shouldn't bother looking into it further.

Nothing is known about the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples.

I'm not a geneticist, but that's just wrong, right? If we know the DNA of the people from the time and place that Jared, Lehi, and Mulek came from, we know what their DNA should look like. Right?

Their promise to all who study the book “with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,” is that God “will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” For countless individuals who have applied this test of the book’s authenticity, the Book of Mormon stands as a volume of sacred scripture with the power to bring them closer to Jesus Christ.

Let's forget about all this science stuff, okay? It's enough that it makes you feel good, right? It brings you closer to Christ, right?

The most glaring omission to me is that the essay completely ignores the verses in the D&C that reference the Lamanites. If the Lamanites existed when and where the D&C said they did, the bottleneck theory is garbage.

Yeah but what about the pictures of the jars of marbles? Come on! If that doesn't explain it all then nothing will...

[_Sammy Jankins]

Although it would probably be a complete waste of their time, I would like to see some population geneticists engage this essay.

[Guest]

Anyone keeping a running score card of the prophets, apostles and scriptures these essays have tossed under the bus?

Here are the inconvenient temple dedications by my count:

We are grateful for these beautiful islands of Samoa, and for Thy faithful saints who dwell here. Jacob, son of Lehi, declared anciently: "Great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea." We have witnessed the fulfillment of Thy covenant, for Thou hast not forgotten them.

Apia Samoa Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1983

In these islands of Samoa, Thou hast remembered Thine ancient promise "unto them who are upon the isles of the sea" (2 Nephi 10:21).

Apia Samoa Temple rededicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 2005

Wilt Thou, our Father, continue to bless the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and likewise the descendants of Lehi and Nephi, that the promises contained in the Holy Bible and in the Book of Mormon may be brought to fulfillment and our homes and families blessed abundantly.

Buenos Aries Argentina Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1986

We invoke on the people of this land the wonderful promises made by the Lord as recorded in the Book of Mormon for the righteous who are brought here by Thy Spirit. Heavenly Father, may we receive all the blessings promised to Thy faithful servants as we honor our covenants with Thee.

Buenos Aries Argentina Temple rededicatory prayer by by Henry B. Eyring in 2012

We remember before Thee the sons and daughters of Father Lehi. Wilt Thou keep Thine ancient promises in their behalf. Lift from their shoulders the burdens of poverty and cause the shackles of darkness to fall from their eyes. May they rise to the glories of the past.

Cochabamba Bolivia Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 2000

Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them.

Colonia Juárez Chihuahua México Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1999

Thou kind and gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi, the many generations of our fathers and mothers who suffered so greatly and who walked for so long in darkness. Thou hast heard their cries and seen their tears. Now there will be opened to them the gates of salvation and eternal life.

Guatemala City Guatemala Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1984

We are particularly mindful this day of the sons and daughters of Lehi. They have known so much of suffering and sorrow in their many generations. They have walked in darkness and in servitude. Now Thou hast touched them by the light of the everlasting gospel. The shackles of darkness are falling from their eyes as they embrace the truths of Thy great work. Surely father Lehi has wept with sorrow over his posterity. Surely he weeps today with gladness, for in this holy house there will be exercised the fullness of the priesthood to the blessing, not only of those of this and future generations, but also to the blessing of those of previous generations.

Lima Perú Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1986

We beseech Thee, O Lord, that Thou wilt stay the hand of the destroyer among the descendants of Lehi who reside in this land and give unto them increasing virility and more abundant health, that they may not perish as a people but that from this time forth they may increase in numbers and in strength and in influence, that all the great and glorious promises made concerning the descendants of Lehi may be fulfilled in them; that they may grow in vigor of body and of mind, and above all in love for Thee and Thy Son, and increase in diligence and in faithfulness in keeping the commandments which have come to them through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that many of them may have the privilege of entering this holy house and receiving ordinances for themselves and their departed ancestors.

Mesa Arizona Temple dedicatory prayer by by Heber J. Grant in 1927

Thou didst acknowledge the role of the Lamanite, especially in this temple, and numerous of the sons and daughters of Lehi have found in these sacred precincts peace, knowledge and solace to their souls. ... We are grateful, our Father, that in these years have come to this temple numerous of Thy beloved Indian people of many tribes in their newly discovered way of life. Many children of Lehi have traveled long distances from other lands at great expense and sacrifice, especially in the borders of old Mexico, and numerous families have been welded together for eternity.

Mesa Arizona Temple rededicatory prayer by by Spencer W. Kimball in 1975

Bless Thy saints in this great land and those from other lands who will use this temple. Most have in their veins the blood of Father Lehi. Thou hast kept Thine ancient promise. Many thousands "that walked in darkness have seen a great light."

Mexico City Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1983

We thank Thee for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon with its record of the forebears of the people of Tonga.

Nuku'alofa Tonga Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 1983

We thank Thee that Thou didst bring Father Lehi and his family to this land of promise and Thou didst establish Thy people, the Nephites and the Lamanites and their Book of Mormon.

São Paulo Brazil Temple dedicatory prayer by by Spencer W. Kimball in 1978

We are grateful that this Thy house will be available to the sons and daughters of Lehi who live nearby. Let the scales of darkness fall from their eyes and bring a fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them.

Snowflake Arizona Temple dedicatory prayer by by Gordon B. Hinckley in 2002

Our hearts are filled with gratitude for Thy blessing of the sons and daughters of Lehi. Thou hast heard their cries and seen their tears. Thou hast accepted their righteous sacrifices.

Tegucigalpa Honduras Temple dedicatory prayer by by Deiter F. Uchtdorf in 2013

We invoke Thy blessings upon this nation of Mexico where so many of the sons and daughters of Father Lehi dwell.

Tuxtla Gutiérrez México Temple dedicatory prayer by by James E. Faust in 2000

May Thy eternal purposes concerning the sons and daughters of Lehi be realized in this sacred house. May every blessing of the eternal gospel be poured out upon them, and may the suffering of the centuries be softened through the beneficence of Thy loving care.

Villahermosa México Temple dedicatory prayer by by Thomas S. Monson in 2000

[_SteelHead]

So the first presidency repeatedly demonstrates that they believe the indigenous population to be lamanites.




They need to get with the LGT program.

[_Simon Southerton]

Actually we don't have to know anything about Lehite, Jaredite or Mulekite DNA to determine if there were foreign intrusions in the DNA of the indigenous populations at the time the immigrations were supposed to happen. If I understand Simon Southerton correctly, it is possible to ascertain if any foreign intrusions at all occurred. If none are present in the time frames claimed, it does not matter what Lehite DNA is supposed to look like anyways since no new DNA appeared in the local population at the correct time.

That's correct. The problem is not that we don't know what Lehite DNA looks like. The problem is that all Native American DNA is clearly derived from Asia.

If there was non-Asian DNA floating around then their point would be valid.

[_Tobin]

Actually we don't have to know anything about Lehite, Jaredite or Mulekite DNA to determine if there were foreign intrusions in the DNA of the indigenous populations at the time the immigrations were supposed to happen. If I understand Simon Southerton correctly, it is possible to ascertain if any foreign intrusions at all occurred. If none are present in the time frames claimed, it does not matter what Lehite DNA is supposed to look like anyways since no new DNA appeared in the local population at the correct time.

That's correct. The problem is not that we don't know what Lehite DNA looks like. The problem is that all Native American DNA is clearly derived from Asia.

If there was non-Asian DNA floating around then their point would be valid.

Simon is being less than honest here. He knows that many Native Americans descendants are of mixed heritage with both Native American and European or African ancestry. For example, I'm part Native American but I otherwise appear to be of purely European descent. People like me (and my guess is we represent the vast majority of Native American descendants) have not been tested and don't fall into Simon's consideration because of our mixed heritage. If the Lehite descendants exist, they could very easily exist in this population.

[_Quasimodo]

Simon is being less than honest here. He knows that many Native Americans descendants are of mixed heritage with both Native American and European or African ancestry. For example, I'm part Native American but I otherwise appear to be of purely European descent. People like me (and my guess is we represent the vast majority of Native American descendants) have not been tested and don't fall into Simon's consideration because of our mixed heritage. If the Lehite descendants exist, they could very easily exist in this population.

Tobin is once again proving himself a twit. Tobin's DNA (as an amalgam of DNA from a divergent heritage) is not very important (which is typical of Tobin in general). The DNA from a less mixed populous is what is conclusive here.

Tobin arguing with Southerton is like a child arguing with Einstein.

[_Equality]

Simon is being less than honest here. He knows that many Native Americans descendants are of mixed heritage with both Native American and European or African ancestry. For example, I'm part Native American but I otherwise appear to be of purely European descent. People like me (and my guess is we represent the vast majority of Native American descendants) have not been tested and don't fall into Simon's consideration because of our mixed heritage. If the Lehite descendants exist, they could very easily exist in this population.

Once again, you demonstrate you have absolutely no damned clue what you are talking about. You are terminally stupid, completely incapable of learning. You have been told six ways from Sunday exactly why your criticism is irrelevant on multiple other DNA threads, which you always seek to derail with your inanities and idiocies.

You calling Simon Southerton dishonest is like Justin Bieber calling Bruce Springsteen untalented.

Read Fence Sitter's summary of Simon's explanation. Then read Simon's explanation. If you can comprehend either, you will see that your criticism is completely baseless. Your personal "mixed heritage" has nothing whatsoever do with whether the tools of modern genetic science would be able to detect the influx of DNA from the eastern hemisphere into the DNA of peoples who became the ancestors of modern native Americans. It's really not that hard a concept for people who don't belong to the ranks of the deluded.

[_Tobin]

Simon is being less than honest here. He knows that many Native Americans descendants are of mixed heritage with both Native American and European or African ancestry. For example, I'm part Native American but I otherwise appear to be of purely European descent. People like me (and my guess is we represent the vast majority of Native American descendants) have not been tested and don't fall into Simon's consideration because of our mixed heritage. If the Lehite descendants exist, they could very easily exist in this population.

Once again, you demonstrate you have absolutely no f*****g clue what you are talking about. You are terminally stupid, completely incapable of learning. You have been told six ways from Sunday exactly why your criticism is irrelevant on multiple other DNA threads, which you always seek to derail with your inanities and idiocies.

You calling Simon Southerton dishonest is like Justin Bieber calling Bruce Springsteen untalented.

Read Fence Sitter's summary of Simon's explanation. Then read Simon's explanation. If you can comprehend either, you will see that your criticism is completely baseless. Your personal "mixed heritage" has nothing whatsoever do with whether the tools of modern genetic science would be able to detect the influx of DNA from the eastern hemisphere into the DNA of peoples who became the ancestors of modern native Americans. It's really not that hard a concept for people who don't belong to the ranks of the deluded.

Welcome to ignore. When you can learn to control yourself Equality and can discuss things like a mature, civil human-being; you let me know.