Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

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Doctor Scratch
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Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by Doctor Scratch »

It's Friday, meaning that new "steaming" offerings from "Mormon Interpreter" have been posted to the site's blog. This time around, it's Editor-in-Chief Jeff Lindsay wielding the pooper-scooper as he reviews Dan Vogel's Book of Abraham Apologetics: Review and Critique. Lindsay's review is admittedly entertaining, though you have to wonder why John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein opted to sit this one out. Too tired, I guess? In any case, can you guess what Lindsay's chief complaint is? Yes, that's correct:
Lindsay wrote:While he claims to use an objective approach, he instead weaves a polemical agenda that ignores some of the most important scholarship in favor of the Book of Abraham. He ignores crucial evidence and relies on assumptions and hypotheses as if they were established facts. The arguments of apologists, which he claims to be reviewing and critiquing, are often overlooked or, when treated, attacked without letting readers know the substance of the apologetic argument.
Sound familiar? If so, it's because that was one of Hamblin's basic complaints to Philip Jenkins: i.e., that Jenkins refused to look at "Ancient Book of Mormon Studies" publications. Jenkins rightly dismissed such a thing as nonsense--as being on a par with "Bigfoot Studies" or "Alien Abduction Studies." Interestingly, Lindsay is far more politic in his approach here:
J. Lindsay wrote:In spite of knowing what the conclusions would be, the journey could be valuable for students of the Book of Abraham to understand the weaknesses in evidences and arguments.
But Lindsay also once again takes up one of "Interpreter's" favorite targets: the JSPP edition that was co-edited by Brian Hauglid:
For example, understanding Vogel’s polemical arguments and methodology can help [Page 109]readers discern the nature of the unfortunate and now openly admitted influence of Vogel on an important volume from the Joseph Smith Papers Project (Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts,2 hereafter JSPRT4). The volume is remarkably valuable, but readers need to understand the subtle but pervasive bias in the many choices and statements made therein. After publication, Brian Hauglid, one of the volume editors of JSPRT4, praised Vogel’s approach to the Book of Abraham, noting that it had influenced his work as an editor. Vogel discusses this and praises Hauglid for that in his book (xvi, also citing Hauglid’s public acceptance of critical approaches to the Book of Abraham, on Facebook, in footnote 20). That influence can be seen in many ways that have been pointed out elsewhere.3
Again: if this is a flaw in one of the Church's major publications, why hasn't it been redacted? Are the Brethren dumb? As usual, this comes across as insubordination and/or ark-steadying. If something is "wrong" with one of the Brethren's projects, the Mopologists ought to leave it alone. Kudos to Lindsay, though, for at least saying that the "volume is remarkably valuable," rather than the work of a conniving apostate.

In any case, the bulk of Lindsay's analysis is little more than petty nitpicking, such as complaining that Vogel refuses to acknowledge that "Shinehah" *might* be evidence of prophetic power on Joseph Smith's part:
Lindsay wrote:Perhaps this was a lucky guess, but one that should at least raise an eyebrow.
Maybe so. And maybe Anthony Fauci should also publicly acknowledge that "some people" believe that Covid can be cured by injecting bleach? That'll be sure to raise a few eyebrows! In essence, Lindsey's entire argument boils down to one long complaint that Vogel won't lend any credence to all their stupid arguments. Look: the Book of Abraham is not an authentic translation. The end. The whole debate has been dead in the water for decades, and this isn't helping anyone. Perhaps the best line in the whole piece comes towards the end:
In the end, Vogel stands victorious on a strangely quiet and empty battlefield.
Indeed. I doubt that truer words have ever been posted to the "Mormon Interpreter" blog.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by Dr Moore »

Well timed, Doctor. I listened to the audio of this episode while driving in traffic today. I couldn’t help but notice the number of times Lindsay cited Interpreter works to make his point. It’s become a sort of circular edifice through which Lindsay can say, with citations, that the purported influence of Adam Clarke has been completely debunked, that Gee has found attested proper nouns, with astronomical odds of guessing, in the time of Abraham, etc etc. Meanwhile, he couldn’t help but compliment Vogel for his contributions, even if he couldn’t bring himself to compliment anything specific.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by drumdude »

The empty battlefield… “The church has always taught that book of Abraham was not a literal translation.”

“We have always been at war with Eastasia.”
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

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Lindsay’s argument is incredibly weak. I mean, take a classic Mopologetic case study: the question of the extent to which Dr. Peterson has gotten paid to do apologetics. By Lindsay’s own standards, DCP would need to acknowledge all the evidence out there *from critics*—including the IRS documents—in order to be accepted as being honest and “impartial.”
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by Bought Yahoo »

There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever translated Egyptian.

But the King's name is Ptolemy I.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

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Bought Yahoo wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:14 am
There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever translated Egyptian.

But the King's name is Ptolemy I.
:roll:

Prove it, yoyo.

FYI, I've got a thread going on in the Celestial Forum for those who might have interest.

Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

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Bought Yahoo wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:14 am
There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever translated Egyptian.
Shouldn’t that be an incredibly large red flag to you?
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:54 pm
Bought Yahoo wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:14 am
There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever translated Egyptian.
Shouldn’t that be an incredibly large red flag to you?
He’s already stated he’s a nominal believer these days, whatever that means.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by Shulem »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:54 pm
Bought Yahoo wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:14 am
There is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever translated Egyptian.
Shouldn’t that be an incredibly large red flag to you?

That's a good point and poor Jeff Lindsay is left with very little to hold on to other than the lucky shot Smith made with Shinehah which has been thoroughly disproven in the thread I just linked to. Apologists go on and on about the so-called Four Sons of Horus bullseye and other things that can be stretched to show Smith had to have known something more than nothing at all.

The article in the Interpreter looks quite lengthy. I put Vogel's book down midway through and am saving it for a little later. It remains in my briefcase that I carry everyday. Nobody on this board seemed interested in discussing it. I found his book to be right up my alley. I don't think Vogel took my criticisms well and didn't want to hear more of them. He covered his ears and ran away like a baby. Oh well, bless his heart. Love him anyway. He does excellent work.

Vogel's new book on Abraham
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay Wades into the Book of Abraham Morass at Interpreter

Post by drumdude »

Kiwi57 wrote:If Gee is correct, then the faxx are not revealed documents.

If they are not revealed documents, but merely copies of essentially unrelated pictures on the papyri, then they have no relevance to the Book of Abraham as Scripture, and any mistakes in copying of them, or restorations of the missing portions, tell us nothing about the process of translation, or Joseph's ability as an inspired translator.

And if that's the case, then the facsimiles are of no use as weapons against the Church of Jesus Christ.
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