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Tobin wrote:Brackbite,

I don't know who you are trying to convince of what?

Obviously there were other people here. And if the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact, then it is unlikely that when the Lehites arrived and didn't run into anyone. The question is - to what degree did they encounter the nations here in the Americas? Since the Book of Mormon does not explicitly describe or make reference to these other nations, the most likely reality is the Lehites encountered individuals or small groups. Also, just so you are aware Brackite - the Israelites intermarried with many groups in ancient Israel and considered their progeny of the house of Israel. Your shallow understanding of Biblical realities does not add anything to this discussion.

1. The phrase in verse 1 that "there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem" is used to assume Sherem was an unknown "outsider" who just happened to walk into Jacob's village for the first time after living his life somewhere non-Nephite. I think a better interpretation is that Sherem always lived among the Nephites (or perhaps dissident Nephites), and what Jacob means by "came ... among" is that Sherem "rose up" from among the people. A variation of "came ... among" has been used in other parts of the Book of Mormon to mean something like "rose up." For example, the same Jacob used the phrase "come among" this way:

Jacob in 2 Nephi 10:3 wrote:Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ -- for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name -- should come among the Jews, among those who are more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him -- for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

We all know that Jesus did not "come among" the Jews from the outside, but had always been among them (except for the relatively short trip to Egypt).

And we have the example of Abinadi. In Mosiah 11:20 we read:

And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto the people, thus saith the Lord -- Wo be unto this people, for I have see their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.

And just a few verses later, Mosiah 12:1 reads:

And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, and they knew him not, and he began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying -- Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, I will visit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations.

2. My next issue is with apologists' interpretation of verse 4 in Jacob 7, where Jacob describes Sherem this way:

Jacob in Jacob 7:4 wrote:And he [i.e., Sherem] was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil.

Apologists seem to read this as meaning Sherem was not a native Nephite speaker; that "Nephite" (or "Hebrew" or whatever the Nephites spoke at that time) was Sherem's second language. I find this a ridiculous argument. I see nothing to suggest that Sherem mastered the foreign (to Sherem) language of the Nephites. I read this verse to mean that Sherem was very educated and became a great orator (perhaps he was a lawyer or politician, who often do not speak like the more average folk). This interpretation is suggested by Jacob's mention of "flattery" and "power of speech," as well as Jacob mentioning that Sherem's power to persuade the people was supported by "the power of the devil." Sherem didn't need the devil to teach him how to speak the foreign language spoken by the Nephites, but, rather, to help him use words that would persuade his audience. Apparently Sherem was so good in his arguments that even Jacob himself (who I'm sure spoke very well in the Nephite language) had to rely on the Lord to counter Sherem's persuasive arguments:

Jacob in Jacob 7:8 wrote:But, behold, the Lord God poured in his Spirit into my [i.e., Jacob's] soul, insomuch that I did confound him in all his words.

I don't think it can be more clear: Jacob's reference to Sherem's "perfect knowledge of the language of the people" points to Sherem's oratory and persuasion skills, not to Sherem's ability to learn a foreign language.

3. Sherem's reference to "Brother Jacob" in Jacob 7:6 -- this tells me that Sherem is part of the Nephites, rather than a foreign "outsider."

4. Apologists use Jacob 7:6 to argue that Jacob was surprised to see Sherem because they had never met before. I see nothing in Jacob 7 to suggest this. In fact, Sherem says that he had "sought much opportunity" to speak with Jacob about the religious issues raised in their subsequent conversation. I read this to mean that Sherem has, indeed, been there a while and had on several occasions tried to speak with Jacob -- it's not clear why they couldn't have had their debate before (which apparently was not from a lack of trying on Sherem's part -- perhaps Jacob did know of Sherem (at least by reputation) and had avoided him?).

5. Verse 7 makes clear that Sherem was well versed with the scriptures (see also verse 10), particularly the Law of Moses. How would Sherem have studied the Nephite scriptures (and have a good understanding of the very detailed Law of Moses) unless he was in fact "among" the Nephites for a very long time? This is additional evidence that Sherem was not a foreign "outsider" from among "others."

You have misunderstood my point. My comparison of the two verses, written by the same Jacob, was to show that Jacob's use of the phrase "came ... among" and its variation "come among" both referred to a man who has and does live within the subject community and is not a "foreign" new arrival who previously lived with unknown "others." For example, we know that Jesus always lived among his kinsmen, the Jews (except for a brief spell in Egypt) -- Jesus did not "come among" the Jews, as Jacob described it, in the sense that Jesus only first arrived to live with the Jews when he began his ministry. In the same way, Jacob's use of the phrase "came ... among" in referring Sherem does not necessarily mean that Sherem was part of non-Lehite "others" and had just arrived in Nephite land.

Again, you have utterly missed my point. It doesn't matter that the people didn't recognize Abinadi because of his disguise. What does matter is that Abinadi physically lived among the Nephites -- Abinadi was not a "foreign" outsider just arriving in town (even if the people may have thought so because of the disguise). But, yet, the same "came among" phrase used by Jacob to describe Abinadi, a Nephite, was later used to also describe Sherem, which apologists have interpreted it to mean that Sherem had not lived among the Nephites but was an "outsider" who had lived among "others."

That wouldn't have worked if Sherem was truly an unknown foreigner who had just arrived at the Nephite village -- the people would have been offended by a NON-Nephite acting so chummy with their prophet. Nah, by using the salutation "Brother," Sherem revealed that he was part of the tribe.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Tobin wrote:They are killing him because they don't know him and reject the idea that he is their God.

Exactly! And where did the Jews get the idea that Jesus claimed to be the son of God? From his ministry! He was a Jew, but that is not what got him crucified -- it was what he preached during his ministry. Baby steps, baby steps ... c'mon, Tobin, we'll get you there.

Tobin wrote:Another example of a false imposition. The author wouldn't have mentioned those details in the very same sentence if they weren't important to the meaning of what he was saying. So it doesn't matter of what the author knew. In fact, the author knew how the story was going to end too. The author could have just skipped to the end, but that makes a rather uninteresting story.

It appears the baby steps have stopped -- too bad. The writer included the detail about the disguise to explain why the people didn't recognize Abinadi -- but the writer STILL used the phrase "came among" in referring to a man who ALREADY lived with the Nephites, not some stranger from "others" land.

Tobin wrote:You believe that because you are using broken impositions and assumptions. If "came among" is used the same way as it is Mosiah, then it clearly means that he wasn't known by the Nephites.

Again, let me say this very slowly: It. Doesn't. Matter. What. The. People. Knew. -- What. Matters. Is. What. The. Writer. Knew. When. He. Used. The. Phrase. "Came Among." Got it now?

Tobin wrote:Other than the inexplicable fact that the Lehites had arrived just 40 years prior, but somehow Jacob and Sherem had never met.

There is absolutely NO suggestion in Jacob 7 that Sherem and Jacob had never met.

Tobin wrote:We are talking about at most 100-200 people.

We don't know how many people there were at the time (the time frame given in the Book of Mormon as to when the events in Jacob 7 occurred is a period of over 100 years).

Tobin wrote:This would have been a very small community using the critics own assumptions that there was no-one else around. That is why we are discussing this.

I am well aware that the classic-FARMSboys desperately need to add more people to the Book of Mormon in order to justify their concocted answers to tough questions, but they should at least have the intellectual honesty (like B.H. Roberts did) not to try and force non-existent evidence on unsuspecting members, which is precisely what Givens has been doing on this topic at his firesides.

Sherem's Accusations against Jacob

...

“I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come.” (Jacob 7:7)

An interesting encounter is reported in Jacob 7 between Sherem and Jacob. In light of the ancient Israelite criminal law that was in force among the Nephites at this time and at least up to the time of the reforms of Mosiah (see 2 Nephi 5:10; Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 17:7–8; Alma 1:17), it is evident that Sherem’s accusations were serious allegations. On three accounts, he accused Jacob of offenses punishable by death:

Ye have [1] led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is [2] blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he [3] cannot tell of things to come. (Jacob 7:7)

Each of Sherem’s accusations can be traced to specific provisions in pre-exilic Israelite law:

1. Causing public apostasy. Leading other people or a city into apostasy was recognized as a serious infraction under the law of Moses and the Talmud. Deuteronomy 13:1–18 condemns to death any person, whether a prophet, or brother, or son, or wife, who says to the inhabitants of their city, “Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known” (Deuteronomy 13:13; see 13:2, 6). “Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; . . . but thou shalt surely kill him” (Deuteronomy 13:8–9).

Moreover, Sherem’s point that Jacob had converted the observance of the law of Moses into the worship of an unknown future being seems to have been based on the Deuteronomic prohibition against turning to serve new gods “which ye have not known” (Deuteronomy 13:2, 6, 13).

2. Blasphemy. Sherem’s second accusation also raised a capital charge. It was a felony under the law of Moses to blaspheme (see Exodus 20:7; Leviticus 24:10–16). Leviticus 24 established that any person who blasphemed, even in a brawl, was to be stoned to death. Sherem raised the charge of blasphemy against Jacob when he formally accused him, saying, “I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy” (Jacob 7:7).

While the ancient history of the crime of blasphemy is obscure, this offense apparently embraced many forms of insolent or seditious speech, whether against God, against the king (see 1 Kings 21:10), against another man, or against holy places or things, including the law (compare Acts 6:13).

3. False Prophecy. Sherem’s words also advanced a claim of false prophecy. The test for whether a prophet had spoken truly or falsely was usually to see “if the thing follow not, nor come to pass” (Deuteronomy 18:22). Apparently Sherem tried to preclude this defense when he objected that Jacob had spoken of things too far distant in the future. When Sherem asserted categorically that “no man knoweth of such things” (Jacob 7:7), he seems to be arguing that prophecies of that nature should not be easily tolerated under the law. With shorter-term prophecies, one has the chance to test them within a reasonable time.

Deuteronomy 18:20 requires that a man shall be put to death if he speaks “in the name of other gods.” One can understand how Jacob’s “preaching . . . the doctrine of Christ” (Jacob 7:6) could have been deviously characterized by Sherem as a form of speaking “in the name of” another god, for the Nephites had begun worshipping God in the name of Christ (see 2 Nephi 25:13–19; Jacob 4:5). Perhaps Book of Mormon prophets insisted so emphatically that God and his Son were but “one God” (2 Nephi 31:21; Alma 11:28–29, 35), partly to affirm that speaking in the name of one was not to be construed legally as speaking in the name of any other god.

Thus Sherem’s allegations were not merely vague rhetorical criticisms; they were well-formulated accusations, logically derived from specific provisions of the ancient law. Sherem’s words put Jacob’s life in jeopardy. If allowed to stand, these accusations would have justified Jacob’s execution.

At the same time, Sherem also put his own life on the line. The ancient punishment for a false accuser was to suffer that which “he had thought to have done unto his brother” (Deuteronomy 19:19). Not only does this show that Sherem was deeply committed to his views and dead serious about the charges he raised against his “brother Jacob” (Jacob 7:6), it also explains the sense of legal justice that exists in the fact that, in the end, Sherem was smitten by God and he himself soon died.

Brackite wrote:

Tobin wrote:Brackbite,

I don't know who you are trying to convince of what?

Obviously there were other people here. And if the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact, then it is unlikely that when the Lehites arrived and didn't run into anyone. The question is - to what degree did they encounter the nations here in the Americas? Since the Book of Mormon does not explicitly describe or make reference to these other nations, the most likely reality is the Lehites encountered individuals or small groups. Also, just so you are aware Brackite - the Israelites intermarried with many groups in ancient Israel and considered their progeny of the house of Israel. Your shallow understanding of Biblical realities does not add anything to this discussion.

Tobin!!! When you tried to argue that Sherem was a Non-Israelite "outsider" you got your butt kicked by Rollo Tomasi. Remember That???

1 Nephi 22:

[6] Nevertheless, after they shall be nursed by the Gentiles, and the Lord has lifted up his hand upon the Gentiles and set them up for a standard, and their children have been carried in their arms, and their daughters have been carried upon their shoulders, behold these things of which are spoken are temporal; for thus are the covenants of the Lord with our fathers; and it meaneth us in the days to come, and also all our brethren who are of the house of Israel.


Ether 12:

[22] And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ.

[38] And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

Jacob 7:

[26] And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.

Brackite wrote:And Gentiles (Non-Israelites) were not referred to as their brethren by the Book of Mormon Prophets

Tobin wrote:

Brackite wrote:And Gentiles (Non-Israelites) were not referred to as their brethren by the Book of Mormon Prophets

Oh really. Who made this magic rule? Or is this just another nutty example of Brackite's weird understanding of the Book of Mormon? I'm betting on the latter.

And if the Book of Mormon has a basis in fact, then it is unlikely that when the Lehites arrived and didn't run into anyone.

Also, just so you are aware Brackite - the Israelites intermarried with many groups in ancient Israel and considered their progeny of the house of Israel. Your shallow understanding of Biblical realities does not add anything to this discussion.

3 Nephi 5:

[20] I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.



Mormon 1:

[5] And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father's name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me.

Brackite wrote:
There is Not anywhere within the text of the Book of Mormon that states that the Nephites 'intermarried' with the Non-Israelite "Natives" of the Promise land. The Book of Mormon Prophet Mormon proclaims himself to be a pure descendant of Lehi though Nephi.

Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it now. I'm pretty sure that Tobin is Giorgio A. Tsoukalos in real life.

Brackite wrote:If the Book of Mormon really has a basis in fact, Adam and Eve were literal people who lived around 4000 B.C.E. and are the first Parents of the whole human race, the Flood of Noah covered the whole Globe literally, and the Tower of Babel literally happened. (See e.g. 2nd Nephi 2:19-25, 2nd Nephi 9:21, Mosiah 3:11 & 19, Ether 1:3-5 & 33, Ether 6:7, and Ether 13:1-2.)

Brackite wrote:

Tobin wrote:Also, just so you are aware Brackite - the Israelites intermarried with many groups in ancient Israel and considered their progeny of the house of Israel. Your shallow understanding of Biblical realities does not add anything to this discussion.

There is Not anywhere within the text of the Book of Mormon that states that the Nephites 'intermarried' with the Non-Israelite "Natives" of the Promise land.

Brackite wrote:The Book of Mormon Prophet Mormon proclaims himself to be a pure descendant of Lehi though Nephi.

3 Nephi 5