An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Building

[_Mayan Elephant]

Language and tone sounds for all the world like the kind of thinking that goes on in a old line corporation that is being forced to look at possible ways of diversifying in an attempt to protect revenues in a rapidly changing business environment.

i agree. the corporation is changing and adapting. and doing so rather quickly, really. i believe that the church is gaining members and losing the larger contributors. but it is not just the internet and it is not just the history behind this exchange.

the church grew enormously with the baby boomers. the mission ranks peaked in the late 80's and early 90's, when the last of the baby boomers were sending their first kids on missions and the early baby boomers were sending their last kids. those baby boomers were rich. super rich. they are just now filling the retirement ranks and probably paying a lot less tithing than they used to.

these baby boomers did not have the huge families that their parents had. and their children are having even fewer children. so not only are big tithing payers leaving the church, they are also not replenishing the earth. the reduction in missionary numbers should be a huge indicator of the demographic change. there arent as many kids going if you take the bump from the age change out of the mix.

and on top of that, my generation is not making as much money as my parents generation. doctors make less. lawyers make less. cops and firemen don't have the same pension benefits so they are not banking as much. athletes and CEOs make more, but that is not really helping the Mormons.

i think the church is trying to turn this ship too fast too soon. and the money trail is going to expose them. they can buy buildings and they can buy florida, but they are playing with fire by doing so while not disclosing their finances to people that think the church is doing something else with their tithing.

[_Gadianton]

Maxrep,

Thanks for your insights. I think you've nailed it.

[_Spanner]

Now, as an outsider looking in, I see the pressure placed on paying tithing and it is unseemly and blatantly manipulative. On the inside, I didn't see that. I thought the leaders were encouraging tithing payment out of concern for my spiritual health. I wonder if that is changing now. When I was in, everyone paid on gross. According to Kirby, it is common to pay on net now. And possibly deducting necessary expenses may be considered ok.

Presumably the admonition in the Ensign, to pay tithing before rent, utilities, and food, was because members were taking to deducting those expenses first. You don't tell people not to do what they are already not doing.

[_Markk]

In one of those huh moments, I was sitting in a meeting attended by one of the Mormon Corporation's special 15. In a unsolicited statement those in attendance were given a small glimpse into an "alarming trend".

The special one stated that though the Brethren are pleased with the continued growth of the Church especially in Africa and Asia, there is a great concern about the wealthy nations and the continued decline in the work and the "stiff-neckedness and pride of the internet educated populations.

He further indicated that for every 100 third world converts gained the Church is losing a family from the wealthy nations. He explained that for tithing, it means an annual $10,000.00 loss for each family that leaves and a cost increase of $150.00 per convert in the third world nations.

Since this was related to a temple we are working on, the loss of income was associated to how much these third world temples cost to build and operate compared to the return in tithing.

That the local users are so few and not able to offset the costs associated with a temple management and that the lost of even 1 family in the US, Canada and Europe was creating unexpected shortages in temple funds.

If the cost increase of $150.00 per convert is only for temples... I wonder what the costs would be for other buildings, welfare, and other church sponsored programs?

[_No Mas Mentiras]

In one of those huh moments, I was sitting in a meeting attended by one of the Mormon Corporation's special 15. In a unsolicited statement those in attendance were given a small glimpse into an "alarming trend".

The special one stated that though the Brethren are pleased with the continued growth of the Church especially in Africa and Asia, there is a great concern about the wealthy nations and the continued decline in the work and the "stiff-neckedness and pride of the internet educated populations.

He further indicated that for every 100 third world converts gained the Church is losing a family from the wealthy nations. He explained that for tithing, it means an annual $10,000.00 loss for each family that leaves and a cost increase of $150.00 per convert in the third world nations.

Since this was related to a temple we are working on, the loss of income was associated to how much these third world temples cost to build and operate compared to the return in tithing.

That the local users are so few and not able to offset the costs associated with a temple management and that the lost of even 1 family in the US, Canada and Europe was creating unexpected shortages in temple funds.

Great insights! If you consider the lost tithing as well as the cafeteria Mormons like WaterDog, who feel justified in only paying tithing on their monthly/yearly excess, the church is going to have to find revenue sources from other spheres of their holdings.

[_The Mighty Builder]

If the cost increase of $150.00 per convert is only for temples... I wonder what the costs would be for other buildings, welfare, and other church sponsored programs?

I think the amount was for annual membership costs inclusive, though it wasn't explicitly stated as such.

[_Maxrep]

...It has been my firsthand experience as well, that some members are calculating their "increase" from an entirely new perspective as well.

Could you elaborate please?

A good friend of mine, who attends out of family attachments but does not believe, raised some questions about tithing during elders quorum. This friend of mine is not shy, and will certainly speak his mind. This leads to some uncomfortable moments for many of the TBM's, though it does not phase my buddy in the slightest. Certainly makes for some interesting discussions....but back on topic!

After this particiular discussion about tithing, a rather well to do member in the quorum approached my friend in the halls. He proceeded to explain how he and his family made the decision to pay tithing as it was originally introduced, paying on ones increase after all reasonable living expenditures were subtracted, rather than paying on net or gross income.

Some members have also elected to start paying their tithes directly to Salt Lake. By doing this, local leaders have no information on the dollar amount a member pays. This allows the individual who bypasses the local bishopric, to declare themselves a full tithe payer without feeling the necessity of explaining how they are calculating their increase.

Another good friend of mine has elected to stop paying tithes based off of the church's recent financial decisions(the mall). After some time passed, this friends wife opted out of paying tithing as well. So I guess from these personal experiences, and other rumblings, it does seem that there has been a trend that has been underway for some time now involving members both rethinking how they calculate their increase as well as deciding not to tithe altogether.

I wonder if anyone here could point out that link to an article that discusses tithing on your increase by using the mission presidents handbook as a reference to describe what are considered "reasonable" expenses? I can't seem to remember where I found it.

[_Maxrep]

and a cost increase of $150.00 per convert in the third world nations.

Decades ago I distinctly remember hearing that in Mexico, they actually export fast offerings. This was said in such a way as to point out to us wealthy Americans, that we needed to be much more generous with our own fast offerings. I didn't believe it for a second! Exporting fast offerings from a poverty stricken country - el bull crappo.

"Converts" in third world countries serve one purpose.

They are there to be counted and these numbers boasted by the leaders to the members who pay the largest annual tithes.

Precisely. This is the ultimate "loss Leader". Blowing Golden Happiness Sunshine up the butts of TBM's is sooo expensive! It's hilarious when you step back and think about it.

[_suniluni2]

Some members have also elected to start paying their tithes directly to Salt Lake. By doing this, local leaders have no information on the dollar amount a member pays.

Sorry but I don't believe this. The whole point of tithing being done at the local level is to require tithing settlement to get a temple recommend. If members pay directly to Salt Lake who handles tithing settlement? And by saying members pay tithes to Salt Lake, who do they actually pay, CPB, or some other entity? I don't even think Salt Lake would accept tithes; they would tell them to pay it to their local unit.

[_mackay11]

I wonder if anyone here could point out that link to an article that discusses tithing on your increase by using the mission presidents handbook as a reference to describe what are considered "reasonable" expenses? I can't seem to remember where I found it.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... 4.html?m=1