An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Building

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_suniluni2
_Emeritus
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Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _suniluni2 »

Maxrep wrote:Obviously you have not prayed about this. Paying tithing directly to Salt Lake has been tested by yours truly. By the way, which sock do you puppet for over at madb?


You're right, I haven't prayed about it, that's why I'm asking you for some kind of proof. So what particular entity did you pay your tithing to? And who does your tithing settlements, if you even bother with that?

I don't have any sockpuppets here or at madb. I don't post at madb; was banned several years ago for asking posters for proof of their claims.
_Bazooka
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Bazooka »

Maxrep wrote:Additionally, I agree with you that the financial landscape has changed here in the U.S. Do you agree that over the last decade or so, that the number of active members paying on their gross or net may have dropped due to some members choosing to pay on their increase or surplus? Do you also agree that more members who remain active over the last decade or so, have opted out of tithing altogether, resulting in a smaller percentage of full tithe payers who attend church?

It goes without saying that there are no hard numbers to clearly settle the question, but what are your feelings?


Not true.
The Church publishes it's financials in the UK (legally obliged to do so) and they can be viewed at
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/sea ... day+saints

Using the membership stats from...
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target ... ind=Search
...we can show the following hard numbers:

1. UK population growth since 2007 - 2012 @ 3%
2. Church Membership growth in line with population growth (increases in numbers of members is therefore down to new births minus deaths) and membership remains static 2007 - 2012 at 0.3% of population. Number of Stakes has been at 45 since 2005.
3. Tithing (='Donations' minus 'Restricted Income') is reported as follows:
2007 - £29,402,000
2008 - £28,389,000
2009 - £27,475,000
2010 - £28,548,000
2011 - £30,262,000
2012 - £29,823,000
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_readtoomuch
_Emeritus
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:45 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _readtoomuch »

I have always looked at Temple building as a money making activity. Take for example a Temple which is being built in Indianapolis. According to my understanding, the Temple is being built in the most expensive area of Indiana. If the Church was able to convert some really rich people who live near the temple, the payback would be exponentially faster. I am not aware of the statistics but I would imagine that the church keeps statistics on how the average dollar intake of tithing goes up within the area of each Temple built. So activate some membes and get more tithing. Convert some rich people and boom....lots more tithing. You can't convince me that in the back rooms of the COB, these types of analysis isnt being done. So build the temple in the richest area you can find and just see the dollars coming in..yea!
_The Mighty Builder
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Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

readtoomuch wrote:I have always looked at Temple building as a money making activity. Take for example a Temple which is being built in Indianapolis. According to my understanding, the Temple is being built in the most expensive area of Indiana. If the Church was able to convert some really rich people who live near the temple, the payback would be exponentially faster. I am not aware of the statistics but I would imagine that the church keeps statistics on how the average dollar intake of tithing goes up within the area of each Temple built. So activate some members and get more tithing. Convert some rich people and boom....lots more tithing. You can't convince me that in the back rooms of the COB, these types of analysis isn't being done. So build the temple in the richest area you can find and just see the dollars coming in..yea!


Affluent areas are chosen to protect the image of the Temple and the Mormon Corporation, MEMBERSHIP NEEDS BE DAMNED.

The only reason a location is chosen is purely Property Value. Low Property value = Poor Image of the Mormon Corporation. Wealthy location = Rich Church, Rich Members, God Blessed organization.

If you look at the Temple Schedules of most of the non-corridor temples you will see that they are by appointment only or Friday & Saturday only - oh and bring your own officiators.

Temples outside of the Mormon corridor are just for show for the Corridor members. See, we're building an Air Warehouse in the Sinai Desert, that means we're growing. BS
_Arrakis
_Emeritus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:54 pm

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Arrakis »

Tithing (='Donations' minus 'Restricted Income')


What is Restricted Income?
_Maxrep
_Emeritus
Posts: 677
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:29 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Maxrep »

Bazooka wrote:
Maxrep wrote:Additionally, I agree with you that the financial landscape has changed here in the U.S. Do you agree that over the last decade or so, that the number of active members paying on their gross or net may have dropped due to some members choosing to pay on their increase or surplus? Do you also agree that more members who remain active over the last decade or so, have opted out of tithing altogether, resulting in a smaller percentage of full tithe payers who attend church?

It goes without saying that there are no hard numbers to clearly settle the question, but what are your feelings?


Not true.
The Church publishes it's financials in the UK (legally obliged to do so) and they can be viewed at
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/sea ... day+saints

Using the membership stats from...
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target ... ind=Search
...we can show the following hard numbers:

1. UK population growth since 2007 - 2012 @ 3%
2. Church Membership growth in line with population growth (increases in numbers of members is therefore down to new births minus deaths) and membership remains static 2007 - 2012 at 0.3% of population. Number of Stakes has been at 45 since 2005.
3. Tithing (='Donations' minus 'Restricted Income') is reported as follows:
2007 - £29,402,000
2008 - £28,389,000
2009 - £27,475,000
2010 - £28,548,000
2011 - £30,262,000
2012 - £29,823,000
To be clear, I was referring to the U.S.

I have been aware of the UK's requiring financial disclosure for a long time. The problem, as I understand it, is sifting out the actual tithing amount from the total reported income. Also, There needs to be a longer history of yearly tithing income to show a change over time, and the U.S. has a far larger LDS population than the UK.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
_Maxrep
_Emeritus
Posts: 677
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:29 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Maxrep »

suniluni2 wrote:
Maxrep wrote:Obviously you have not prayed about this. Paying tithing directly to Salt Lake has been tested by yours truly. By the way, which sock do you puppet for over at madb?


You're right, I haven't prayed about it, that's why I'm asking you for some kind of proof.
Call Salt Lake and they will help get you set up. You'll get an email with instructions, and you can make a trial donation using your checking acct routing #.
So what particular entity did you pay your tithing to?
Don't remember, I would have to back about 18months through my email to find out, but my tithes were paid to the church.
And who does your tithing settlements, if you even bother with that?
Your bishop
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Bazooka »

Arrakis wrote:
Tithing (='Donations' minus 'Restricted Income')


What is Restricted Income?


Donations that have been given for specifics such as Fast Offering, Temple Fund etc.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Chap »

suniluni2 wrote:
Maxrep wrote:Obviously you have not prayed about this. Paying tithing directly to Salt Lake has been tested by yours truly. By the way, which sock do you puppet for over at madb?


You're right, I haven't prayed about it, that's why I'm asking you for some kind of proof. So what particular entity did you pay your tithing to? And who does your tithing settlements, if you even bother with that?

I don't have any sockpuppets here or at madb. I don't post at madb; was banned several years ago for asking posters for proof of their claims.


A bit of Googling makes it plain that online tithing payment has been available for quite a while - see here for instance:

http://ldsmobile.net/pay-lds-tithing-online/

There are various options - including payment direct to Salt Lake City.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: An Alarming Trend with a Costly Outcome for Temple Build

Post by _Bazooka »

Maxrep wrote:I have been aware of the UK's requiring financial disclosure for a long time. The problem, as I understand it, is sifting out the actual tithing amount from the total reported income. Also, There needs to be a longer history of yearly tithing income to show a change over time, and the U.S. has a far larger LDS population than the UK.


I did exactly that when I posted:
3. Tithing (='Donations' minus 'Restricted Income') is reported as follows:
2007 - £29,402,000
2008 - £28,389,000
2009 - £27,475,000
2010 - £28,548,000
2011 - £30,262,000
2012 - £29,823,000
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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