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Hello beastie!

beastie wrote:...would religion cease to exist?

I don't know the answer to this question but if human beings lived forever, I would propose that a great many things would cease to exist.

The reality though, is that human beings (or any life for that matter) does not live forever - so I think your above point is largely irrelevant to and/or for any real and meaningful discussion.

A large part of religion seems to be an attempt to prepare human beings for life after death.

I can't agree with this at all.
"Religion" (collection of beliefs/world views/cultural systems) in many cases - of the approximately 4,200 religions we see today - mostly attempt to understand and/or contemplate the meaning of life, the origins of life, the universe, etc.

Preparation for life after death, in my opinion, is unachievable......not to mention way above our collective and mere human being pay grades.

If human beings lived forever, that purpose would be meaningless.

But human beings don't live forever so how do you (or I) know what is or is not meaningless concerning our inevitable lives ending? I agree that you (or I) can believe what we find meaningless, but I would suggest that these personal beliefs are merely and only that.

And the necessity of faith itself leads us to conclude that that involvement is so minimal and vague it can be attributed to other natural factors.

That reads like it was authored by an atheist! LOL!

"Leads us" to conclude?
Be carful, my friend, that you don't accidentally lump all human beings (with a variety of different world views, beliefs and cultural influences) in one single and neat group. Humanity is much, much more complex than that...in my opinion

If religion would cease to exist if human beings lived forever, what does that tell us about religion?

I don't know how much this tells us about religion? But I suspect it does give us an interesting glimpse into the worldview/beliefs of the author who wrote the question.

Peace,
Ceeboo

beastie wrote:...would religion cease to exist?

A large part of religion seems to be an attempt to prepare human beings for life after death. If human beings lived forever, that purpose would be meaningless. Therefore, religion would be neutered. Its only purpose would have to do with involving the godbeing in one's current life. And the necessity of faith itself leads us to conclude that that involvement is so minimal and vague it can be attributed to other natural factors. So what purpose would religion then serve?

It's not inconceivable that, in the future, we would be able to attain some sort of immortality of consciousness by merging consciousness with technology, so maybe this question is more pertinent than we now realize.

If religion would cease to exist if human beings lived forever, what does that tell us about religion?

Beastie,Along with Ceebo I cannot agree religion is to prepare for life after death. Religion is to help learn to live life now. If it does not do that leave it or change it.

I find godbeing an ugly word, I wonder why.

Thanks to those who took this thought exercise seriously.

First, huck, I mean no offense with the term godbeing. The word "God", in our culture, has Judeo-Christian connotations, and I wanted a term more generic than that. I want a term that would encompass any sort of supernatural being with godlike powers, such as Tobin's alien coitus-interruptus. I not only lack belief in the Judeo-Christian God, but any supernatural being at all.

Yes, I realize that religion is also about teaching us how to live and find our place in the universe. However, it also seems to me that much of the power of religion derives from the "God" at the center of it. (avoiding godbeing for now for huck's sake, but know I mean the more generic term) When some believers wonder how atheists can be moral, the point of it isn't that atheists don't have moral codes and a worldview. The point is that there's no real incentive or power without the God at the center of it. That is because most religions teach that part of our purpose is pleasing God, who is invested in our behavior. If human beings never die and face that God, that God's power is focused solely on that God's interactions with human beings who are alive on this planet.

The reason that I think this would neuter much of religion is that the world with God pretty much looks like a world without God would look. That is why faith is required. After all, if God's presence were apparent in this world, then faith would not be required. We would just know God was there, like we know the human being beside us is there. For example, if we lived in a world wherein God truly did answer every prayer, then that effect would be notable and apparent. Faith would no longer be required. But since faith is a requirement for religion, that means that God's presence is NOT apparent at all. As I said, the world with God looks just like the world without God would look. Hence, faith.

So if it were truly all about just this life, no death, no after-life to be concerned about, God's influence over human beings would dwindle. In my opinion, of course.

If human beings lived forever ....

I swear to God, the first thing that went through my mind was to wonder how many times I'd end up having to sit through that Gilligan's Island episode with the grenade-throwing gorilla.

Bret Ripley wrote:I swear to God, the first thing that went through my mind was to wonder how many times I'd end up having to sit through that Gilligan's Island episode with the grenade-throwing gorilla.

Groundhog day gone wild. :P

beastie wrote:

Bret Ripley wrote:I swear to God, the first thing that went through my mind was to wonder how many times I'd end up having to sit through that Gilligan's Island episode with the grenade-throwing gorilla.

Groundhog day gone wild. :P

Beastie, several people have noted that your hypothetical scenario suggests nightmarish possibilities. I suppose it is possible that after a billion years hope for improvement might fade and with it all sorts of religion would fade. Perhaps a star to star galaxy search for planet where people die would ensue.

I understand your intention with godbeing. I do not take personal affront or any such thing. For me the phrase deflects away from the intention of religion. Most if not all religions are concerned with relating to the fundamental order and value in our existence. That may or may not involve god. There are after all religions without a god or godbeing.

I realize that the monotheistic religions do involve a concern for an afterlife. I hope I did not sound like that was irrelavant. I did mean that the search for better more meaningful life is a priority concern for religion. After all with out that eternal life would become hell.It might be noted that the Biblical religion went a long time with out much belief in an afterlife. It was concern for this life which was center at the start.

I am not sure why and it may be personal associations but the word godbeing sound a bit more like some tyrannical interloper instead of something that is the fundamental order and source of life. I suppose you may be intending only to distinguish views which understand that source as in some way personal from view which see it as completely impersonal.

Your comparison of a world with and without god is not without meaning. It reads for me as version of the basic criticism, "I look all around and see no god nor anything showing as a certainty gods special action." I realize that is not a bad argument. Presented in your version my mind complains that we only have one world, not two in order to compare. You import your conclusion into the form of the argument. That is the view that all of the things believers see as gifts from God, our life love and existence, are not from God.It can sound as if you want to run the comparison excluding everything God does and admitting only what God generally does not do.

Now I understand that good values people are involved with in life are part of life for believers and unbelievers in God. There is in Christian speech a separation between values of the world , might makes right, and spiritual values, love and gratitude. These do not divide out between believer and unbelievers. Both groups may at time bow to the "values of the world"

beastie wrote:...would religion cease to exist?

A large part of religion seems to be an attempt to prepare human beings for life after death. If human beings lived forever, that purpose would be meaningless. Therefore, religion would be neutered. Its only purpose would have to do with involving the godbeing in one's current life. And the necessity of faith itself leads us to conclude that that involvement is so minimal and vague it can be attributed to other natural factors. So what purpose would religion then serve?

It's not inconceivable that, in the future, we would be able to attain some sort of immortality of consciousness by merging consciousness with technology, so maybe this question is more pertinent than we now realize.

If religion would cease to exist if human beings lived forever, what does that tell us about religion?

Adam and Eve were immortal in the Garden and were taught religion ie: the Gospel. Once they transgressed the law, they were taught more and they progressed. Without temporal death progression stops. Without religion (gospel understanding) spiritual progression stops. Both death and religion are necessary components to eternal progression.

GR33N wrote:
Adam and Eve were immortal in the Garden and were taught religion ie: the Gospel. Once they transgressed the law, they were taught more and they progressed. Without temporal death progression stops. Without religion (gospel understanding) spiritual progression stops. Both death and religion are necessary components to eternal progression.

This is an interesting comment. Beastie?

What kinds of progress, say over the next ten thousand years, would you expect mankind to make on their own? No godbeing. Just how far would you expect mankind to evolve in a moral sense over that same period of time?

And how about the next ten thousand years after that? The sun is supposed to keep burning for quite a while.

What would it be like without God belief over that span of time? Without faith would you expect that things will continue to get better or worse?

As it is, faith, on the whole, seems to be a motivating force for doing much good in the world. How would it be without it?

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:This is an interesting comment. Beastie?

What kinds of progress, say over the next ten thousand years, would you expect mankind to make on their own? No godbeing. Just how far would you expect mankind to evolve in a moral sense over that same period of time?

And how about the next ten thousand years after that? The sun is supposed to keep burning for quite a while.

What would it be like without God belief over that span of time? Without faith would you expect that things will continue to get better or worse?

As it is, faith, on the whole, seems to be a motivating force for doing much good in the world. How would it be without it?

Regards,
MG

I think that mankind has made positive moral progression over the years. I know it's hard to see, at times, given the 24 hour media frenzies, but violence is decreasing. Slavery used to be accepted as moral, now it's condemned, even though, sadly, not eradicated. As nations become more entwined with each other, as it inevitable, international conflict will decrease, as well. As long as we can avert destroying our own nest, I think that positive progression will continue.

I don't think it's faith that's been the motivating factor behind this progression. In history, religion has been as likely to oppose and hinder moral progression than it has helped it.

I think that understanding of human nature will continue. If human beings really got to the point of becoming a sort of blend of biological/articifical lifeform, I think our understanding of our own nature will have reached a point where we can resolve many conflicts in a peaceful fashion, and probably medically treat conditions that today are destructive to the individual and society. And as a globally entwined community, it will benefit ourselves to benefit others.