DiscussMormonism.com

Themis wrote:
If you can look at it from the perspective of Joseph making it up, did he really do it in a few months or did he have years to prepare?

Look at the Timeline I linked to and tell me what you think. I've considered the possibility that there could have been a longer period of time for writing the script in the Book of Mormon, but it doesn't seem to jive very well with the actual translation chronology. And it's interesting, like I was saying, how dates of chapter translations in the Book of Mormon seem to dovetail with revelations received for later D&C compilation.

Coincidence?

That along with the witnesses of translation verifying that the process took place with Joseph's head in a hat. Where would all the complexity and cohesiveness of the text have come from? He kept it straight all in his head? Emma said he could simply pick up from where he left off.

Regards,
MG

Themis wrote:What we do know is the Book of Mormon project was not thought up and done in a few months but many years.

Two ways of looking at that. Moroni was telling Joseph the basic narrative, etc., of the 'ancient peoples' during that previous time period you're referring (previous to 'translation') to and he'd tell stories to his family and so forth, or Joseph was making it up. Spaulding, etc.

So how do you KNOW that it is one option vs. the other? Unless there's something else you're thinking of here...

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:Look at the Timeline I linked to and tell me what you think. I've considered the possibility that there could have been a longer period of time for writing the script in the Book of Mormon, but it doesn't seem to jive very well with the actual translation chronology.

If you can look at it with the perspective of Joseph making it up you would realize many things. One is that we know the Book of Mormon project started many years before the 3 month claimed translation period. You keep looking at things from a believer perspective and keep making the mistake of believing assumptions being true.

And it's interesting, like I was saying, how dates of chapter translations in the Book of Mormon seem to dovetail with revelations received for later D&C compilation.

Coincidence?

I am not seeing how this does not fit with a perspective of Joseph making it up.

That along with the witnesses of translation verifying that the process took place with Joseph's head in a hat. Where would all the complexity and cohesiveness of the text have come from? He kept it straight all in his head? Emma said he could simply pick up from where he left off.

Oliver is the main scribe and he gives no real details of the process(I consider that a possibly suggesting he could be in on it). How much of the other witness's represents the total time claimed in translating to a scribe?

mentalgymnast wrote:

Themis wrote:What we do know is the Book of Mormon project was not thought up and done in a few months but many years.

Two ways of looking at that. Moroni was telling Joseph the basic narrative, etc., of the 'ancient peoples' during that previous time period you're referring (previous to 'translation') to and he'd tell stories to his family and so forth, or Joseph was making it up. Spaulding, etc.

What we know is the project was thought of years before the 3 month claimed translation process. That's a long time to get things done. There are more possibilities then Moroni or Spaulding.

So how do you KNOW that it is one option vs. the other? Unless there's something else you're thinking of here...

Looking at the text to see if it fits with reality. There is a lot of evidence to look at. You can also check other translations claims like the Book of Abraham, etc to see if they have evidence for or against these claims. He doesn't do well at all.

Themis wrote:

And it's interesting, like I was saying, how dates of chapter translations in the Book of Mormon seem to dovetail with revelations received for later D&C compilation.

Coincidence?

I am not seeing how this does not fit with a perspective of Joseph making it up.

If nothing else, it fits in with the revelatory process that is often described. Ask/inquire first, then receive. That the D&C Sections match with sections in the Book of Mormon where the same principle and/or doctrine is being taught could be more than coincidence. Joseph is translating, comes across a passage/section, prays for further light and knowledge and the revelation comes. You have to admit, it is interesting that there seems to be a direct correlation.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:
If nothing else, it fits in with the revelatory process that is often described. Ask/inquire first, then receive. That the D&C Sections match with sections in the Book of Mormon where the same principle and/or doctrine is being taught could be more than coincidence. Joseph is translating, comes across a passage/section, prays for further light and knowledge and the revelation comes. You have to admit, it is interesting that there seems to be a direct correlation.

Regards,
MG

I'm not seeing what makes it interesting. From a believing perspective one would think he would ask questions to God as certain passages come up, but from a critical perspective he is just making this up as well, as the story progresses. He controls both. Why wouldn't we expect him to do this? Would it make sense for him to come up with it before he claims to get a particular part of the Book of Mormon?

Themis wrote:

mentalgymnast wrote:
If nothing else, it fits in with the revelatory process that is often described. Ask/inquire first, then receive. That the D&C Sections match with sections in the Book of Mormon where the same principle and/or doctrine is being taught could be more than coincidence. Joseph is translating, comes across a passage/section, prays for further light and knowledge and the revelation comes. You have to admit, it is interesting that there seems to be a direct correlation.

Regards,
MG

I'm not seeing what makes it interesting. From a believing perspective one would think he would ask questions to God as certain passages come up, but from a critical perspective he is just making this up as well, as the story progresses. He controls both. Why wouldn't we expect him to do this? Would it make sense for him to come up with it before he claims to get a particular part of the Book of Mormon?

If you operate from the default assumptions that you seem to be operating from there would be nothing that would convince you that revelation from God is real. So I wouldn't expect that this would be meaningful to you except to show what people are capable of without any external influence.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast wrote:
If you operate from the default assumptions that you seem to be operating from there would be nothing that would convince you that revelation from God is real. So I wouldn't expect that this would be meaningful to you except to show what people are capable of without any external influence.

I understand both perspectives. I suppose some believers might see this as miraculous, but only a few. As a believer I didn't think of it as anything special. I would expect someone who talks to God to ask questions. I would. Your problem is that the non-believing expectation comes up with the con-man doing the same. This is why there is nothing really unexpected you have brought up.

One thing I see though is a lack of critical thinking skills for some LDS. If one makes the assumption that Joseph made up the Book of Mormon, why would they make the assumptions LDS want to make that he had to make up the entire book in a 3 month time period? That's not what the evidence tells us.

mentalgymnast wrote:If you operate from the default assumptions that you seem to be operating from there would be nothing that would convince you that revelation from God is real. So I wouldn't expect that this would be meaningful to you except to show what people are capable of without any external influence.

Regards,
MG

In what specific ways is revelation from God identifiable as authentic?

Plucking nonsense out of one's arse =/= translation
Dictation =/= composition

Then, Oliver was in on the scam.