Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

bcspace wrote:
Yes, that's all it was. Joe was simply out gunned. Joseph was not assassinated, nor was he a martyr. He was killed at the shoot out at Carthage corral.

Lincoln did not shoot a single bullet. By definition he was assassinated.


Joseph Smith went willingly to Carthage jail knowing full well that he might not come back. He even ordered the Nauvoo Legion not to do anything about it. Martyr.

Did he tell the mob to take him and let the others go? NO.

Did he fire a gun at the mob? Yes

He was out gunned and his brother died because he was a coward and not a martyr.
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_Nightlion
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Nightlion »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:
He was out gunned and his brother died because he was a coward and not a martyr.

Willard Richards offered to die on Joseph's behalf. And Joseph prophesied that Richards would not be touched when a hail of bullets take down his friends:

A year before his assassination, the Prophet Joseph Smith told his close friend and personal secretary, Dr. Willard Richards, that the time would come when balls would fly around Willard like hail, and he would see his friends fall on the right and on the left, but there would not be a hole in Willard’s garments. On 27 June 1844, Brother Richards, who had offered to die in place of the Prophet Joseph, was voluntarily imprisoned in Carthage Jail with Joseph, Hyrum, and John Taylor. Hyrum was the first to fall as a ball, fired through the panel of the closed door, struck him in the face. He fell to the floor exclaiming, “I am a dead man.” As the mob forced the door partly open, Brother Richards, with a walking stick, courageously parried off the muskets that were thrust through the opening. But his efforts were in vain. Next, his fellow apostle, John Taylor, was shot several times and bled profusely from the wounds. Then his beloved Prophet Joseph was shot and fell through the second story window into the midst of a howling, murderous mob. With no thought for his own safety, Brother Richards rushed to the window, determined to see the end of the Prophet he loved. Miraculously, in fulfillment of Joseph’s prophecy, Elder Richards was preserved without even a hole in his garments.


Joseph Smith did not fire his pepper-box pistol until after the mob fired through the door and killed his brother, Hyrum.

The Carthage Greys reportedly feigned defense of the jail by firing shots or blanks over the attackers' heads, and some of the Greys reportedly joined the mob, who rushed up the stairs.[15]

The mob fired shots through the door and attempted to push the door open to fire into the room. Hyrum Smith was shot in the face, just to the left of his nose, throwing him to the floor. He cried out, "I am a dead man!" and collapsed. He died almost immediately.[17]

Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock gave him when Wheelock visited the jail earlier that day.[18] Three of the six barrels misfired,[19] but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers.[20]

John Taylor was shot four or five times and was severely injured, but survived. One shot was long believed to have been stopped by his pocket watch, which is on display in the LDS Church History Museum in Salt Lake City. Forensic research by J. Lynn Lyon, M.D., of the University of Utah and LDS historian Glen M. Leonard in 2010 suggests that Taylor's watch was not struck by a ball, but rather broke against the window ledge.[21] Columbia University professor and historian Richard Bushman, the author of the Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, also supports this view. Richards escaped unscathed as he was pushed behind the door when it was forced open.[citation needed]

After using all of the shots in his pistol, Joseph Smith made his way towards the window. As Smith prepared to jump down, Richards reported that he was shot twice in the back and a third bullet, fired from a musket on the ground outside, hit him in the chest.[2]:v6,p620
1851 lithograph of Smith's body being mutilated. (Library of Congress).

Taylor and Richards' accounts both report that as Smith fell from the window, he called out "Oh Lord, my God!". Some have alleged that the context of this statement was an attempt by Joseph Smith to use a Masonic distress signal.[22]

There are varying accounts of what happened next. Taylor and Richards' accounts state that Smith was dead when he landed after his fall. One eyewitness, William Daniels, wrote in his 1845 account that Smith was alive when mob members propped his body against a nearby well, assembled a makeshift firing squad, and shot him before fleeing. Daniels' account also states that one man tried to decapitate Smith for a bounty, but was prevented by divine intervention.[23] There were additional reports that thunder and lightning frightened the mob off.[24] Mob members fled, shouting, "The Mormons are coming," although there was no such force nearby.[25]


Joseph jumped out the window to save his two friends Taylor and Richards. That makes him heroic in his own martyrdom.

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_Nightlion
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Nightlion »

Saw Skooh wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Nobody has been better researched than Abraham Lincoln. All the details are on the table. Yet, he gets all his sins covered because you just do not mess with Lincoln.

If we were asked to accept Lincoln as God's one true chosen vessel and mouthpiece on Earth, second only to Jesus Christ Son of God, and dedicate our lives, time, talents, families, and wealth to his church (and no other!) in exchange for salvation from sin and even death itself, and if anyone on this board advocated such, then your comparison might be remotely meaningful and relevant. Until then, it falls flat.

Also, whatever criticisms there are to be leveled at Lincoln, they mostly have little to do the things for which he is revered. For Joseph, on the other hand, most of his questionable methods, behaviors, and motives are directly or closely connected with the very things that are claimed to make him so great: his scriptures, doctrines, supernatural talents, and revelations.


What a wonderful set up you laid out for me.

Indeed, Lincoln is revered, albeit serendipitously, as the Patron Saint of Modern Atheism.
That sealed with his own blood after the slaughter of 750,000 Americans. He sowed the seeds of the rise of modern atheism by his public recrimination of Providence because both sides prayed to the same God. How could God favor either side in the great conflict?

The Civil War started one year after Charles Darwin published his Origin of the Species. We can trace Satan's cunning manipulation of modern society toward his aim at the Great Provocation that ends our world as we know it.

The lush American continent filled with inhabitants is lusted for and taken by killing off most native inhabitants. Slaves are brought in to do half the work. The hypocrisy of all men are created equal sets up the coming conflict that PROVES to the profane that God is dead. But not because some philosopher said so. No, an honorable man having greatness thrust upon him and rising to the occasion, trampling upon the Constitution in his expediency and closing many printing presses that opposed his cause, he frees the slaves and wins the day and dies a martyr of Black voting rights.

Thus was atheism sanctified in the minds and hearts of many who lost much. Like dead fish planted to help the corn grow, the death of so many of America's best sons made fertile the growth of modern atheism.

And this is why Lincoln sits as a Zeus in his memorial and why no blasphemer will sully him and all the haters of God refrain from speaking ill of their most honorable saint.

Lincoln was no atheist. No matter. He worked a marvelous work and a wonder for the cause of atheism that has transformed the entire world. AMEN
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_SignatureJohn
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _SignatureJohn »

[quote="Nightlion"Lincoln was great EOS nothing ill is said nor believed of him.[/quote]

I don't think that strawman will ever be able to get up after that thrashing.

P.S. You really need to read more about Lincoln if 1) you think no one ever says anything ill about him, and 2) you think equating him to Joseph Smith is a remotely thoughtful or insightful thing to say.
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_Molok
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Molok »

Lincoln was a tyrant, and yes history has white washed him, and just about every other important figure in American History, of all his warts and mistakes. There, now someone said something bad about him. Happy?
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Nightlion »

Molok wrote:Lincoln was a tyrant, and yes history has white washed him, and just about every other important figure in American History, of all his warts and mistakes. There, now someone said something bad about him. Happy?


I am only using Lincoln to make a case for extreme prejudice against Joseph Smith.
The hypocrisy of the LDS Church has denied Joseph Smith his true greatness. People are not aware what he accomplished that was so great because they do no apply the Restoration in their lives. They instead have changed it to suite themselves.

Joseph needs his greatness enshrined so people will back off and give him a pass and heaven forbid perhaps get the Restoration right for Pete's sake.
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Nightlion »

SignatureJohn wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Lincoln was great EOS nothing ill is said nor believed of him.


I don't think that strawman will ever be able to get up after that thrashing.

P.S. You really need to read more about Lincoln if 1) you think no one ever says anything ill about him, and 2) you think equating him to Joseph Smith is a remotely thoughtful or insightful thing to say.


I did say everything is on the table because Lincoln was the best researched of all Americans. Nobody, even knowing, slams him still. He owns a hallowed status unlike any other. I do not begrudge him that. I resent the stupidity and spiritual hypocrisy that has denied Joseph Smith the hallowed status he merits. Yes, indeed he does.
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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Nightlion wrote:Lincoln was great EOS nothing ill is said nor believed of him.

Joseph was great EOS everything ill IS said and believed of him.

"EOS" = ?
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _Brackite »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:
Lincoln freed the black man. Joe enslaved white Mormon women.


+100
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_SignatureJohn
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Re: Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

Post by _SignatureJohn »

Nightlion wrote:Nobody, even knowing, slams him still.


You can keep saying that, but it just says more about your lack of knowledge of Lincoln scholarship than it says about Lincoln or Joseph Smith. Just today, in my reading of Michael Burlingame's two-volume biography of Lincoln, I went through pages of details about Lincoln's race-baiting in the 1830s. He savaged Martin Van Buren for suggesting there be a limited extension of suffrage to free blacks.

People do talk about Lincoln's flaws and faults. But you are correct that they don't compare him to Joseph Smith or give Joseph Smith the same courtesy, because Lincoln and Joseph Smith were radically different people. Your comparison of them is the false equivalency fallacy. Taking two famous people with flaws and saying, "Huh! Why don't we treat these two the same!" is silly in the extreme. I might as well ask why we give Walt Disney a pass but insist on being so hard on poor old Warren G. Harding. Or ask why we're so nice to Martin Luther King, Jr. but so mean to misunderstood Richard Nixon.

Fortunately, history is complex, multi-layered, and doesn't work this way.
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