Lincoln gets a pass: Joseph Smith gets hammered.

[_GR33N]

Joseph Smith went willingly to Carthage knowing he would not return. Joseph, along with his brother, Hyrum, John Taylor and Willard Richards attempted to defend themselves from a mob that outnumbered them easily 10-1 from within a jail that afforded no protection from the jailer who boasted that his prisoners would be killed before sunset. Once the mob had killed his brother, Joseph then went to the window. As he did, he fell out of the window and to the ground below where after hitting his head, he was some what dazed and and unable to defend himself. The Carthage Greys and members of the mob then sat him upright against the wall and then executed him by firing squad. Martyr.

[Guest]

Actually this issue is something I started thinking about a while back and I am starting to educate myself on: Compare and contrast Lincoln and Smith. They both were born in poverty: Smith in 1805 and Lincoln in 1809. They had very little formal education They both lived in Illinois in the the early 1840's. What were people saying about Lincoln in that time period and what were people saying about Smith. Lincon was someone who believed with every fiber of his being in the rule of law. Lincoln also believed that since he didn't really go to church he had to double down on honesty and integrity. Lincoln mentioned a supreme being when comforting people but at times expressed the thought that there was no big reunion in an afterlife and this was it.

A great audio tape to listen to is A team of rivals which is free if you sign up and cancel within a month on audio.com Use it as a trial service. It reveals the lives of the Lincoln cabinet: Chase from Ohio and Bates from Missouri and Seward from New York. All ran against Lincoln for the 1860 nomination. They were all young men and lived in their states when Mormons started building communities there. Compare and contrast what Chase and Smith did in Ohio and Smith and Seward in New York or Smith and Bates in Missouri. All these men Lincoln, Bates, Chase and Seward were devoted family men. They lived the same time period as Smith but lived completely different lives.

[_karl61]

Joseph Smith went willingly to Carthage knowing he would not return. Joseph, along with his brother, Hyrum, John Taylor and Willard Richards attempted to defend themselves from a mob that outnumbered them easily 10-1 from within a jail that afforded no protection from the jailer who boasted that his prisoners would be killed before sunset. Once the mob had killed his brother, Joseph then went to the window. As he did, he fell out of the window and to the ground below where after hitting his head, he was some what dazed and and unable to defend himself. The Carthage Greys and members of the mob then sat him upright against the wall and then executed him by firing squad. Martyr.

I recommend you read Conspiracy at Carthage by Dallin Oaks. It's very good and questions a lot of myths that circulated after the murder. it's pretty straight forward and independent which sort of surprised me but gave Oaks some credibility on the way he conducts and writes about legal history.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

"I dare say Joseph was the better man. And if he had lived and had became president there never would have been a Civil War. I dare say"

There isn't enough Buffalo Shite in the world to top this.

Lincoln was not a sexual predator. Abe didn't marry the wives of other men. He did not groom young women in his home so he could later "marry" them.

Honest Abe is a moniker earned. Joe the molester is as well.

Joseph Smith was the victim of his own delusions of grandeur. Abe Lincoln was not.

Abe was a real President, Joseph was a pretend religious one.

Maybe you should discuss this with your psyciatrist and consider upping your meds?

[_Nightlion]

Actually this issue is something I started thinking about a while back and I am starting to educate myself on: Compare and contrast Lincoln and Smith. They both were born in poverty: Smith in 1805 and Lincoln in 1809. They had very little formal education They both lived in Illinois in the the early 1840's. What were people saying about Lincoln in that time period and what were people saying about Smith. Lincoln was someone who believed with every fiber of his being in the rule of law. Lincoln also believed that since he didn't really go to church he had to double down on honesty and integrity. Lincoln mentioned a supreme being when comforting people but at times expressed the thought that there was no big reunion in an afterlife and this was it.

I am no Lincoln scholar at all. Do you have a quote to reference him a closet atheist. That puts another brand in the fire.

[Guest]

It was mentioned in the audio book A Team of Rivals when discussing the death of his son at the White House. They were the thoughts of the author. My view: he was most likely agnostic at times, like all who walk this earth.

[_Nightlion]

“Mr. Lincoln’s religion is too well known to me to allow of even a shadow of a doubt; he is or was a Theist & a Rationalist, denying all extraordinary — supernatural inspiration or revelation,” Herndon wrote in the letter, signed Feb. 4, 1866, a year after Lincoln’s assassination.

Is this all we got?

[_karl61]

NightLion: if you Google did Abraham Lincoln believe in god you will read 50 different thought processes on the subject with a few quotes. Reports are that Lincoln did not go to church so he likely didn't value the thoughts of preachers. There was nothing a preacher could teach him since the Bible, Aesops Fables, Shakespeare, a couple other books are the books he read and studied during his youth. He couldn't afford other books. He likely read the Bible more times than Joseph Smith. He knew and practiced the golden rule and that is what counts.

[_Saw Skooh]

NightLion: if you Google did Abraham Lincoln believe in god you will read 50 different thought processes on the subject with a few quotes. Reports are that Lincoln did not go to church so he likely didn't value the thoughts of preachers. There was nothing a preacher could teach him since the Bible, Aesops Fables, Shakespeare, a couple other books are the books he read and studied during his youth. He couldn't afford other books. He likely read the Bible more times than Joseph Smith. He knew and practiced the golden rule and that is what counts.

I guess if you can show me some real dirt on Lincoln, the Great Prophet of Atheism, my intellectual integrity will compel me to acknowledge the living reality of YHWH.

[_Nightlion]

NightLion: if you Google did Abraham Lincoln believe in god you will read 50 different thought processes on the subject with a few quotes. Reports are that Lincoln did not go to church so he likely didn't value the thoughts of preachers. There was nothing a preacher could teach him since the Bible, Aesops Fables, Shakespeare, a couple other books are the books he read and studied during his youth. He couldn't afford other books. He likely read the Bible more times than Joseph Smith. He knew and practiced the golden rule and that is what counts.

I guess if you can show me some real dirt on Lincoln, the Great Prophet of Atheism, my intellectual integrity will compel me to acknowledge the living reality of YHWH.

No damn atheist has the slightest intellectual integrity. Liars to a man (w) without exception.

You look at all creation and deny it was created. I cannot call that integrity in the least.
You pretend that there is no evidence when it abounds all around you. Stupid. The more sophisticated science gets even the greatest atheist of our day are caving in and beginning to allow for the existence of a creator. Wake up.

I never said Lincoln was any sort of prophet. I said patron saint of atheism meaning atheism used him for their moral foundation or spine. Atheism was hung on the unassailable virtue of Lincoln's momentum from the ravages of the world's most horrific conflict imaginable. DOUBT that's all. Satan came among the sons of men and said believe it not in the beginning and man became carnal, sensual and devilish. The death knell of the last days Christianity was the Civil War/Darwin/Lincoln and the sudden gilded age of incredible wealth and overwhelming inventions. Men took all honors unto themselves. It's time to come back to reality folks.

If the Mormons had not failed the Restoration Zion could have balanced the lying wonders of Satan and kept a good portion of the world from being so utterly lost.
We all know that the world will never recover from the damage already done.