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Likewise, the Simpson's had a good episode way back where a tribesman resisted offering a sacrifice to a volcano, asking, "If God is so powerful, why does he care about our opinions of him?"

That's the great thing about the supernatural, it can be anything we want it to be.

Gadianton wrote:Likewise, the Simpson's had a good episode way back where a tribesman resisted offering a sacrifice to a volcano, asking, "If God is so powerful, why does he care about our opinions of him?"

That's the great thing about the supernatural, it can be anything we want it to be.

The other night while going to sleep I had the odd thought, "I wonder if I still have the sacrament prayers memorized?" Having satisfied my curiosity that I did, I then wondered why it was so important that they be done exactly right? A form of conjuring? I don't know. But it seems an odd thing to me now that a modern person would believe it matters to God that a priest say certain words exactly so. What logical reason is there for this requirement? And to confuse it more, this requirement overlaps the head of the church being completely wrong about such things as whether or not certain peoples should be denied access to the temple and priesthood blessing for being born a certain way.

I don't know that I've ever seen someone piece together a complete view of the LDS God. Meaning, looking at every single thing associated with Mormonism and try and use it to outline the mind of the being behind it. That is, if one overlooks the more likely idea that this God and His dictates are the product of many, many human minds and contradictory statements over centuries of time. Usually both sides tend to focus on one aspect of God, whether its discussing the problem of evil, the purpose and methods of the atonement, spiritual witnessing, or any other issue. Would it even be possible to try and create a complete outline?

Likewise, the Simpson's had a good episode way back where a tribesman resisted offering a sacrifice to a volcano, asking, "If God is so powerful, why does he care about our opinions of him?"

That's the great thing about the supernatural, it can be anything we want it to be.

Yet the LDS Church has the answer to that question as well which is that God wants us to try and experience both success and failure which helps us become Gods ourselves.

Kent wrote:The question of deceit would require a more compelling premise than the Twilight Zone one, of course.

I didn't read the OP to suggest an alien mind would be guilty of conceiving and executing deceit. Rather, it seems to ask on what grounds we would be justified in overlaying our own way of thinking onto God's and not be guilty of anthropomorphizing this "other"?

I have to admit, I think bcspace hit on one such answer from Mormonism's perspective. That being, if LDS thinking is correct then Elohim is an exalted member of the same type of being as we are. We share biological form, and likely mind if at a different level of awareness and expression.

I also think to the traditional Christian the concept that God created us as an expression of His divine nature with Christ's suffering and atonement would be evidence that trust is justified to some extent.

But does that mean we are justified in claiming to comprehend God's mind? Isn't that the message of the Old Testament prophets? Gods ways are not our ways? Job learned this lesson all too well and this very idea is the central message of the book. Much of Judaism is concerned with how to reconcile being God's chosen with the reality of their treatment throughout western history.

Even the New Testament tells us that God lets it rain on the just and the unjust, to ensure we don't imagine we have God figured out. But then, it also asks what kind of Father would give his child a snake when they ask for a fish. Should we wonder about our viewing God as a Father knowing that good people do, indeed, received snakes?

I don't think experience is a guide unless one is selective in what one chooses to examine.

By the way, there's an important word missing from your first sentence.

That threw me for a loop, too.

bcspace wrote:

Likewise, the Simpson's had a good episode way back where a tribesman resisted offering a sacrifice to a volcano, asking, "If God is so powerful, why does he care about our opinions of him?"

That's the great thing about the supernatural, it can be anything we want it to be.

Yet the LDS Church has the answer to that question as well which is that God wants us to try and experience both success and failure which helps us become Gods ourselves.

Experiencing failure helps you become a God how?

For honor..

on what God looks like- wait i see a shadowy, murky cloud ,looks sorta like a man, about 6ft, 190 lbs wearing boots, a strange coat with medals on it, a sword at the hip wait - i see more clearly now, he has strange coke bottle glasses surrounding them is a black stove pipe hat, a glow from the hat- he stands up says "oliver i have had a enough for the day"

why heavens to betsy it is joseph smith,, he was God all along just pretending to be a predator male with an ego problem.

oh well- next time i'll leave off the red peppers and onions from the pizza!

just sayin

k

All my posts get to the truth much closer than most. You're just so often dismayed that I can do it so succinctly with no weaknesses to take advantage of.

Your point was almost a good one, BC. The first problem is there is no shared evolution between humans and God and LDS do not believe that the first God evolved. Theistic evolution becomes a production mechanism, nothing more. God could have just created us flat out from the dust of the earth and we'd still arguably be similar to God. In fact, even without a body, God can just imbue in man's spirit a piece of his spirit. So you have no advantage whatsoever over any other believer. Second, the issue isn't precisely shared evolution, but an understanding of that shared evolution. An alien species could very well have a shared ancestry with humans, but the assumption of the TZ episode is that we have not encountered the alien species before let alone of the detailed understanding of it that we do humans and other animals.

honorentheos wrote:Ophidian
I have to admit, I think bcspace hit on one such answer from Mormonism's perspective. That being, if LDS thinking is correct then Elohim is an exalted member of the same type of being as we are. We share biological form, and likely mind if at a different level of awareness and expression.

There's a horse before the cart problem with that response. An inter-dimensional alien being contacts you via psychic powers and tells you that, seriously guys, he's a human too. In fact, he thinks just like humans do. On what grounds do you trust that assertion?

I think Kent is playing devil's advocate, albiet poorly in this case. He just reasserts what I listed as a problem. He says you trust the alien on the basis of experience with divine love. This doesn't address my question. It skips right over it. The closest he comes to a counterargument is in saying, "Why would such a powerful being decieve people so elaborately?" Without knowing anything about their mental world, I think the correct response is "Why not?" The way he has worded his question, the implication is that with great power comes the expectation that it isn't worth deceiving others. But that's just an illicit assumption. We could be like ants under a magnifying glass to a alien-god for all we know.

He does have a separate implied argument, which is that if a being is that powerful, what do you have to lose in not trusting it? You're a pawn in its hands anyway. I suppose I should clarify that my point is aimed at believing that being's claims. I suppose you could go along with it out of cornered fear, but that's distinct from concluding that the alien contacting you is God in the sense of this all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being. If you do go along out of cornered fear, there still is the problem of not knowing if that is something the alien will be pleased with or not. Just because someone tells you they want to do something, that doesn't mean that is what they really want.

Why does god need a starship?

~James T Kirk

Honorentheos, I don't think most LDS believe they have a complete view of God, or even very close. They recognize the difficulties based on the evidence at hand and the differences we're warned about in scripture. The experience of divine love I refer to is spiritual, but other kinds of experiences also matter, as you point out. The usual view of the gospel is that God gives everyone who asks (or just everyone) the greatest gifts, life, love, etc, and the snakes are of lesser importance, and also for our own ultimate good, as the experience of evil is essential to appreciating good, dealing with adversity builds our agency, etc. But it does all require a good deal of trust.

The primary reason the sacrament prayers are given verbatim is probably that they're spelled out in scripture. But the practical advantages are great as well. Imagine the alternative. Where would one draw the line? It would be quite a different experience.