DiscussMormonism.com

Water Dog wrote:

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Call me crazy, but wouldn't most people consider an alien/god appearing to someone in an apartment building in New York for the sole purpose of stopping a couple from going to third base, as complete rubbish?

I'm just keepin it real, brotha.

Were you there?

Are you asking me if I was there in the apartment with Tobin?

Tobin wrote:Oh, I've got to hear this. What has your homework taught you exactly that I haven't heard before?

There's so much out there it is hard to know where to start. The evidence against the truth of the church's claims is just so overwhelming.

Tobin wrote:It's a Church (and a rather nice one). The idea that you find it repulsive (or even a sham) is rather silly.

Misquoting me, I see. I didn't say the church was repulsive. I said that the idea of continuing to attend/pay tithing for social/cultural reasons is repulsive. The prophets have constantly pointed out that it is an all or nothing proposition. Here is an example.

"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith."

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Interview "The Mormons"; PBS Documentary, April 2007

I agree. There is no middle ground. Thus my position. If someone comes to realize that the church's claims aren't true I don't understand how they can want to continue to be involved in it in any capacity. On the other hand, I guess not everyone is really as committed to it as I was. I bought it hook, line and sinker. I was hurt when I discovered the truth. I guess it may not matter to those who were always Jack Mormons anyway.

GrandMoffTarkin wrote:

Tobin wrote:Oh, I've got to hear this. What has your homework taught you exactly that I haven't heard before?

There's so much out there it is hard to know where to start. The evidence against the truth of the church's claims is just so overwhelming.

Uh huh.

GrandMoffTarkin wrote:

Tobin wrote:It's a Church (and a rather nice one). The idea that you find it repulsive (or even a sham) is rather silly.

Misquoting me, I see. I didn't say the church was repulsive. I said that the idea of continuing to attend/pay tithing for social/cultural reasons is repulsive.

I fail to see that. I attend. I don't pay tithing (and nobody forces me to). I enjoy the occassional social/cultural activity and don't see anything repulsive. Maybe you can point it out to me?

GrandMoffTarkin wrote:The prophets have constantly pointed out that it is an all or nothing proposition. Here is an example.

"Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith."

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Interview "The Mormons"; PBS Documentary, April 2007

Yes, that is one claim. There are others by the way. And they may have a basis in fact. However, I would point out a problem. GBH wasn't there and has no idea what Joseph Smith saw or didn't see. He's welcome to believe anything he wishes, but he doesn't know. Now, if GBH said he'd also seen the Father, Son and so on. Then maybe I'd be more interested in his opinion on the matter.

GrandMoffTarkin wrote:I agree. There is no middle ground. Thus my position. If someone comes to realize that the church's claims aren't true I don't understand how they can want to continue to be involved in it in any capacity. On the other hand, I guess not everyone is really as committed to it as I was. I bought it hook, line and sinker. I was hurt when I discovered the truth. I guess it may not matter to those who were always Jack Mormons anyway.

Of course there isn't any middle ground if you know the facts. However, I'd venture you haven't seen God the Father, Son and so on. I'd also venture to say that few (if any) Mormons alive today have. So, if they believe that is what happened, that's fine. But you also can disbelieve it and attend the LDS Church. It is just a claim (and I believe an imposition) with little to no evidence either way.

Tobin wrote:Of course there isn't any middle ground if you know the facts. However, I'd venture you haven't seen God the Father, Son and so on. I'd also venture to say that few (if any) Mormons alive today have. So, if they believe that is what happened, that's fine. But you also can disbelieve it and attend the LDS Church. It is just a claim (and I believe an imposition) with little to no evidence either way.

Of course you can. I just don't agree with it.