And you thought the Curse of Cain Doctrine was Dead (link)

[_The Mighty Builder]

Evidently Mr. Mormon, Wacko, Racist, Bigot, Separatist, Constitution hating Rancher has forgotten that by owing the US Government he is a slave to the evilest task master of all DEBT.

https://www.lds.org/topics/finances

[_bcspace]

What makes you think Cain is Bigfoot?

Mormon prophets, like SWK.

So what's the reference and quote where SWK said Cain is Bigfoot?

[_Darth J]

So what's the reference and quote where SWK said Cain is Bigfoot?

Proof left to the student.

[_The Mighty Builder]

bcspace wrote: So what's the reference and quote where SWK said Cain is Bigfoot?

So what's the reference and quote that shows SWK DIDN'T say Cain is Bigfoot?

[_bcspace]

So what's the reference and quote where SWK said Cain is Bigfoot?

Proof left to the student.

You haven't earned anything to justify that so I'll just note that you're making it all up. Either that or you're relying on the unreliable Mormon Think.

[_DarkHelmet]

You haven't earned anything to justify that so I'll just note that you're making it all up. Either that or you're relying on the unreliable Mormon Think.

It saddens me that you have hardened your heart against Bigfoot. Show me a single doctrinal source that says Cain is not Bigfoot.

[_Darth J]

So what's the reference and quote where SWK said Cain is Bigfoot?

Proof left to the student.

You haven't earned anything to justify that so I'll just note that you're making it all up. Either that or you're relying on the unreliable Mormon Think.

So what you're saying is, when someone says, "Proof left to the student," that someone is making it up or relying on unreliable sources.

Very well, I concede your point.

Isn't it odd that you're playing coy here because you're embarrassed about what the leaders of your church say, yet even the FAIR wiki acknowledges that it's a Bigfoot story?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_urban_l ... as_Bigfoot

I sympathize, bcspace. I would want to distance myself from a raving lunatic like Spencer W. Kimball just like you're unsuccessfully trying to do.

P.S. I'm sorry I haven't "earned that" in your estimation, Brother Space. Perhaps someday I'll be as totally full of crap as you are, and thus "earn it." A very lofty goal, I admit.

[_The Mighty Builder]

Darth J Wrote: "Isn't it odd that you're playing coy here because you're embarrassed about what the leaders of your church say, yet even the FAIR wiki acknowledges that it's a Bigfoot story?"

Ah, Poor Mr. Darth J, believing he can pin a Mormon TBM down the the printed, video taped, audio recorded, chiseled, built, and in every other way irrefutable proof of what was ACTUALLY said.

Too bad Mr. Darth J doesn't understand the "MAGIC" of Mormoniciousness where there is NO reality, especially if it is embarrassing to the Mormon Corporation. Up is Down, Left is Right, Wrong is Right, Black is Cursed, Gays are Straight, Women are Objects and White Men Rule Mormonism.

[_just me]

Cliven Bundy is a far right wing Mormon. Far right wing Mormons as a group have a tendency to defend the righteousness of the curse of Cain doctrine. bcspace is doing it in this very thread, and you will not have difficulty finding Droopy doing the same in his posts.

That may be true, but also maybe not. Point is, I don't see Bundy saying anything about the "curse of cain" anywhere in his remarks. For that matter, I don't hear him saying anything explicitly racist either. He didn't say blacks were inferior or anything of the like. What he sounds like is an old man. The way he talks sounds just like something basically any one of my grandparents could have said. To outsiders their language sounds racist, it's not at all politically correct, but my grandparents definitely weren't racists.

Oh for crying out loud. He's not THAT old! He's 67, If I recall correctly. My dad is in his 60s and wouldn't dream of saying anything like that. And, yes, what this guy said was completely and totally racist.

For example, dependence on government-owned land to graze your cattle.

I haven't read up on this particular issue very much, so I could be wrong, but my understanding of the situation is a bit different. As I understand it, the land where the cattle graze used to be owned by the Bundy family. Their family roots go back to before any governments even claimed ownership I believe, or at least so far back to a time when government was so small it amounted to the same thing. At some point though, EPA types got involved and essentially seized the land and declared it some kind of a sanctuary for some desert tortoise. And this is where it really gets asinine. At that point they didn't tell Bundy to remove his cattle entirely but instead they stuck their hand out demanding he pay a tax which he didn't have to pay previously. And the tax is so high it makes it impossible for him to continue doing business and provide meat to the community.

Um, yeah, that's not what I heard. At all.

The land has been owned by the Federal gov't since 1848. Cliven paid for use of the land for grazing until 1993 when a restriction was passed to limit grazing to 150 head of cattle per rancher (due to overgrazing threatening the desert tortoise). It was at that time he decided not to pay the grazing fee or reduce the size of the herd he grazed on Federal land.

[_Darth J]

Cliven Bundy is a far right wing Mormon. Far right wing Mormons as a group have a tendency to defend the righteousness of the curse of Cain doctrine. bcspace is doing it in this very thread, and you will not have difficulty finding Droopy doing the same in his posts.

That may be true, but also maybe not. Point is, I don't see Bundy saying anything about the "curse of cain" anywhere in his remarks.

It is implausible to believe that Cliven Bundy's life in the pre-1978 LDS Church did not inform his views about black people.

For that matter, I don't hear him saying anything explicitly racist either. He didn't say blacks were inferior or anything of the like. What he sounds like is an old man. The way he talks sounds just like something basically any one of my grandparents could have said. To outsiders their language sounds racist, it's not at all politically correct, but my grandparents definitely weren't racists.

Verbatim quote: "[Negroes] abort their young children, and put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton."

For example, dependence on government-owned land to graze your cattle.

I haven't read up on this particular issue very much, so I could be wrong, but my understanding of the situation is a bit different. As I understand it, the land where the cattle graze used to be owned by the Bundy family.

Yes, your understanding is wrong. The Bundy family has never, at any point in history, had any claim of ownership to Gold Butte. It has belonged to the United States government ever since the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed in 1848, and the land was ceded to the federal government by Mexico.

Open range grazing, which is what Bundy and his ancestors have always been doing there, presupposes that the rancher does not own the land he is using for his cattle to feed.

Cliven Bundy has been to court several times over this, and lost decisively every time. The federal government has a permanent injunction against him grazing cattle on Gold Butte because he refuses to get a permit and pay grazing fees. This has been going on for 20 years. Here is the most recent federal district court order enjoining Cliven Bundy from illegally grazing his cattle on that land: http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-conte ... 7-9-13.pdf

Their family roots go back to before any governments even claimed ownership I believe, or at least so far back to a time when government was so small it amounted to the same thing.

No, that is completely wrong. The federal government obtained ownership of Gold Butte in 1848. Bundy's ancestors showed up and started open range grazing there around 1877. That was always with the permission of the U.S. government. Cliven Bundy himself paid grazing fees there until 1993, when the BLM reduced the size of grazing permits there to 150 head of cattle. At that point, despite over a century of respecting and abiding by federal government ownership of Gold Butte, Bundy suddenly decided that the federal government does not even exist (his exact words).

Section 4 of the Enabling Act of 1864 (13 years before Bundy's ancestors arrived) that Congress passed to make Nevada a state specifically states that the federal government retains ownership of all the land in Nevada it previously held:

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Res ... 864Act.pdf

That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; and that the lands belonging to citizens of the United States residing without the said state shall never be taxed higher than the land belonging to the residents thereof; and that no taxes shall be imposed by said state on lands or property therein belonging to, or which may hereafter be purchased by, the United States.

At some point though, EPA types got involved and essentially seized the land and declared it some kind of a sanctuary for some desert tortoise.

That is completely wrong. Congress has authority under Article I of the Constitution to pass the Endangered Species Act governing protection of endangered species on the government's own land. The policy is carried out by the Bureau of Land Management, not the EPA. The EPA deals with environmental hazards.

And this is where it really gets asinine. At that point they didn't tell Bundy to remove his cattle entirely but instead they stuck their hand out demanding he pay a tax which he didn't have to pay previously. And the tax is so high it makes it impossible for him to continue doing business and provide meat to the community.

This is again totally wrong. Bundy ALWAYS had to pay grazing fees, as did his ancestors before him. The $1MM-plus he owes are not "taxes." They are court-imposed fines for him violating court orders that have been in place for years prohibiting him from grazing cattle on Gold Butte without obtaining a permit and without paying fees. They're not taxes at all. They are a fine for illegal activity.

Not saying I'm on Bundy's side. I really don't know enough to choose sides. But from the sound of it, appears on the surface like typical intrusive big government to me. And it seems really asinine that a bureau of "land management" would be laying siege on this man's ranch with dozens of helicopters and dozens to hundreds of "agents." Even if according to the law it's technically "legal" for the government to do it, doesn't make it right. How about the government spend its resources to enforce other laws, like say the Obamacare individual mandate or even our own immigration laws. I can point out a zillion people breaking the law who are actually doing damage to our economy. I just don't see how this guy is one of them at all, much less one that warrants this much attention.

May I ask where you got the incorrect information on which you are basing your assumptions?

Also, what the BLM does is not connected to what HHS or other federal agencies do. They have different staff, different jurisdictions, different budgets, different personnel. The U.S. government is not one giant, single-minded monolith.