And you thought the Curse of Cain Doctrine was Dead (link)

[_just me]

Oh, Water Dog, the Nevada Cattlemen's Association also said this in their release:

"On the same token, ranchers who exercise their grazing rights are obligated to pay a grazing fee as established by law."

"However, in accordance with the rule of law, we must use the system set forth in our Constitution to change those laws and regulations. Nevada Cattlemen's Association does not condone actions that are outside the law in which citizens take the law into their own hands."

You don't seem to be that great at comprehension.

Why is it that liberals love civil disobedience when it comes to their pet issues, like Occupy Wallstreet, but it's anti-American when a conservative engages in it? It seems like nothing more than a my way or the highway mindset. The question we should be asking is whether the government's position is just. Were the grazing rules imposed by the government reasonable? The Cattleman's Association says they weren't and aren't. They are clearly sided with Bundy. Their position on the subject is far more relevant to me than what anybody else is saying.

If the TCA is correct, and the rules and fees being imposed by the government are unreasonable, then perhaps Bundy, and his supporters, have done a good thing in bringing this issue to light. The fact is that we have a large, overbearing and highly bureaucratic federal government which is highly disconnected from the people and their will. Isn't government supposed to serve the people, not the other way around? How are the people of Nevada being served?

Attempting to draw out Bundy, who comes from a different culture and era, and get him to make statements which paint him as a racist is nothing more than a shameless character attack which takes away from the relevant issue. It's pretty pathetic. Destroying the ranching industry to save some stupid turtle doesn't make any sense, and clearly the public won't support it, so let's cloud the whole issue by attacking the character of Bundy and anybody that supports them. They're racists, need we say more? Stereotypical liberal tactic.

Do you consider the Nevada Cattlemen's Association to be a "liberal" entity? They do not agree with the way he is handling the situation. They also do not agree with ranchers not paying their grazing fees.

by the way. I have not made any personal insults towards you and I would appreciate it if you would give me the same respect.

Also, Bundy is not a patriot. He doesn't recognize the United States of America or its laws.

[_Darth J]

Why is it that liberals love civil disobedience when it comes to their pet issues, like Occupy Wallstreet, but it's anti-American when a conservative engages in it?

Why are you assuming that it is only liberals who think Cliven Bundy is a law-breaking charlatan?

[_Darth J]

Attempting to draw out Bundy, who comes from a different culture and era,

Yeah, every person in their 60's and 70's who lives in southern Nevada thinks black people were better off as slaves.

and get him to make statements which paint him as a racist is nothing more than a shameless character attack which takes away from the relevant issue. It's pretty pathetic. Destroying the ranching industry to save some stupid turtle doesn't make any sense, and clearly the public won't support it, so let's cloud the whole issue by attacking the character of Bundy and anybody that supports them. They're racists, need we say more? Stereotypical liberal tactic.

Since you obviously have not watched Bundy's press conference THAT HE CALLED, here it is. The whole statement, in context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

Nobody drew him out. Nobody entrapped him or tricked him or set him up. NOBODY EVEN ASKED HIM A QUESTION TO PROMPT HIS STATEMENT. He spontaneously offered his opinion that the reason black people have abortions and that young black men are disproportionately jailed is that black people have not learned the work ethic of picking cotton as slaves.

[_Darth J]

If the TCA is correct, and the rules and fees being imposed by the government are unreasonable, then perhaps Bundy, and his supporters, have done a good thing in bringing this issue to light.

So remember, kids, if you see this sign at a public park:



Get a few hundred guys with assault rifles to show up and make sure you get to feed the ducks because you think this restriction is unreasonable.

Doing that is different from what Clive Bundy is doing, because reasons.

[_The Mighty Builder]

I'm Not a Racist, I'm just following Mormon Man god's and Mormon Bastard jesus' plan

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=296281 ... d=topstory

[_Tator]

Just found an article claiming that the New York Times edited Bundy's interview.


http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/clive ... ork-times/

[_Darth J]

ROFL! It wasn't an interview at all!

ROFL! I already linked to his unedited speech, and Water Dog is acting like this is new information!

ROFL! The unedited, in-context statement he made was that black people have abortions and go to jail because they haven't learned how to pick cotton!

ROFL! His unedited, in context statement is that black people were better off as slaves, never mind that they were chattel and were routinely tortured and raped!

ROFL! The believing Mormons in this thread are defending what he said!

[_Darth J]

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/04/25/quotes-of-the-day-1712/

Second, however, is that the media has turned this into a circus side show. It’s like their trying to throw us off the real subject.

Gee, ya don't say.

I agree that the real subject that Cliven Bundy is a self-serving fraud is more important than his personal racism.

[_Darth J]

Thanks for the link, Water Dog. Glad to see Cliven Bundy's daughter characterizing this as a "land rights" dispute, even though Cliven Bundy has no rights of any kind to that land.

[_cafe crema]

Waterdog, why should Bundy have an unfair advantage over all the other ranchers who pay for their grazing? How is that right or fair? There are thousands of ranchers who follow the law and pay for grazing. Bundy is able to make more money through theft of public grass.

The fact that the feds have backed down is beyond disappointing. This guy is a thief, a crook. He needs to pay his fines, go to jail and have his cattle removed from public land.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news ... -2014.html

I don't know this to be true at all. And define fair. Show me the list of ranchers who want to graze in this same area who are willing to pay the fee and who disagree with Bundy. Just did a search and it would seem the Nevada Cattlemen's Association side's with Bundy. They of course don't, and wouldn't, openly support physical conflict with the government, but in argument they very strongly agree with Bundy's position.

I think there is more to this than you understand. I am someone of the mindset that government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. I see no good or service on the part of the government in any of this. It sounds like very bad decisions made by very stupid and unreasonable people who happened to have bureaucratic authority, and then it turned into a muscle-flexing pissing contest.

http://www.standard.net/stories/2014/04 ... m-conflict

The Nevada Cattlemen's Association believes that private property rights are at the foundation of our country and our liberty, and we know that the rule of law protects those property rights. Our policy supports private property interests that exist on public lands, including water rights and grazing rights...Ranchers such as Mr. Bundy have found themselves with their backs against the wall as, increasingly, federal regulations have infringed on their public land grazing rights and the multiple use management principle. This is not only devastating to individual ranching families; it is also causing rural communities in the West to whither on the vine...The situation in Nevada stands as an example the federal agencies' steady trend toward elevating environmental and wildlife issues over livestock grazing -- in violation of the above-mentioned laws and principles.

Why should cattlemen have grazing rights on publicly owned property, why should their living be subsidized by the government? Supplies of beef are down and the price is up, it is expected to remain high for a couple of years. If ranchers are producing less beef but the price is high as a result of the shortage how would they be hurt by lower production. Supply and demand should take care of them, not government subsidizing of their product.

Rural communities across the country are withering on the vine, farming families have experienced this for decades. This is being played as a save the small guy rancher, but small ranchers and farmers have been ground away for years now. The small family farmer has been held up as a symbol for reform, but when things have been changed to save the farmer you'd still see family farms up for auction, why is that? Call me cynical but I'd take the tears of the cattlemen's association with a bit of salt.

Oh and Mr. Deadbeat Bundy is not from a different generation, he's a babyboomer, born in 1947, one of those who are famous for wanting their "entitlement". I come from the marriage of 2 large Catholic families as does my husband so I have a lot of relatives, siblings, brother/sisters in law, cousins, aunts, uncles who are around the same age as DB Bundy. Not only that but in my family it is a rural farming or farming business back-round. No one in my family ever came close to what Bundy said, and I've never heard anyone in my husbands' family(they're from a large urban back-round) express anything similar to what Bundy spouted. Even among the older generation in my or my husbands' family, those born between 1900 and 1930, no one has approached the kind of statement Bundy gave. I just don't see it as a "generation thing" and if you're going to go with culture I don't see it as a "rural thing" must be some other culture issue.