Marinda Nancy Hyde

[_bcspace]

To summarize: So far, the ONLY argument being made in the critic's defense is "Something MUST have happened."

[_Sammy Jankins]

To summarize: So far, the ONLY argument being made in the critic's defense is "Something MUST have happened."

There is a marriage date while Orson is away.

There are several accounts that demonstrate that Joseph Smith was not always concerned with getting consent from a spouse. Namely all of his marriages that Emma didn't know about. Or when he instructed Heber C. Kimball not to tell his wife Vilate about his plural wife.

The idea that he married Nancy without Orson knowing, doesn't seem like a radical notion at all. He did it to his own wife. Why wouldn't he have done it to Orson?

[_bcspace]

There is a marriage date while Orson is away.

A speculative marriage or sealing date.

[_Saw Skooh]

I never presented a version of that story.

Anyone reading this thread can see that it was you who introduced Joseph F. Smith "second time" affidavit. You can gloat all you want, you can flaunt your own pristine testimony all day long, but I just don't think you're methods or "facts" are all that helpful for many people who are already disturbed by it. Again, you can let Greenmormon tell you how moved he/she is by your gloating antics.

The barest fact, that even you insist upon, is that Joseph Smith had Orson Hyde's wife sealed to himself for eternity, at least. What I've been saying, repeatedly, is that that alone is enough to disturb countless Mormon's who currently remain unaware. You don't need sex, you don't need "time" sealings, you don't need secret behind-his-back dealings. Those things may or may not have happened, but that doesn't alter the barest of known facts.

And if that fact is so reassuring, if it's so inoculating against doubt and concern, why isn't it published in the manuals? Why isn't it in the Seminary, Institute, Sunday School, priesthood, or Relief Society curricula? What a golden opportunity to save thousands of testimonies! All you would have to is broadcast these redeeming, reassuring facts for all members to glory in. You can include "facts" about Zina Huntington and all the others while you're at it, thereby strengthening testimonies double- and triple-fold.

[_bcspace]

While we're at it, we can also lay to rest the accusation that Joseph sent men on missions so he could be sealed to their wives as this is the only possible case and the evidence, such as speculative date of marriage or sealing with at least A YEAR gone by since Orson began his mission, is against it.

[_bcspace]

I never presented a version of that story.

Anyone reading this thread can see that it was you who introduced Joseph F. Smith "second time" affidavit.

Yet all I did was reference the information on the Hales link. I've given no version of a "two marriages story", rather, I've merely gone with Hales acknowledgement of little or no supporting data..

[_Saw Skooh]

I've given no version of a "two marriages story".

You still don't get it. You're obsessing over details like one or two sealings, like it makes a difference. It doesn't matter. No member cares that much about the number of times Joseph had himself sealed to his friend's wife, so long as it's greater than or equal to 1.

[_bcspace]

You still don't get it. You're obsessing over details like one or two sealings, like it makes a difference.

We're only talking about ONE plural wife in this thread and have laid the issues raised in the OP to rest while giving probably the best resource available. You're just upset that someone dares to use the facts to give a positive view of the situation.

[_moksha]

Fawn Brodie tells the story like this:

“Fortified by a barrel of whiskey, [the mob] smashed their way into the Johnson home on the night of March 24, 1832 and dragged Joseph from the trundle bed where he had fallen asleep while watching one of the twins. They stripped him, scratched and beat him with savage pleasure, and smeared his bleeding body with tar from head to foot. Ripping a pillow into shreds, they plastered him with feathers. It is said that Eli Johnson demanded that the prophet be castrated, for he suspected Joseph of being too intimate with his sister, Nancy Marinda. But the doctor who had been persuaded to join the mob declined the responsibility at the last moment…” (No Man Knows My History, page119).

Todd Compton reports it in this manner:

“The motivation for this mobbing has been debated. Clark Braden…alleged…that Marinda’s brother Eli led a mob against Smith because the prophet had been too intimate with Marinda. This tradition suggests that Smith may have married Marinda at this early time, and some circumstantial factors support such a possibility. The castration attempt might be taken as evidence that the mob felt that Joseph had committed a sexual impropriety; since the attempt is reported by [Marinda's brother who became LDS apostle] Luke Johnson, there is no good reason to doubt it. Also, they had planned the operation in advance, as they brought along a doctor to perform it. The first revelations had been received in 1831, by historian Danel Bachman’s dating. Also, Joseph did tend to marry women who had stayed at his house or in whose house he had stayed” (In Sacred Loneliness, page 231).

The Joseph Smith Papers list:

“Married or sealed” to Joseph Smith, Apr. 1842 or May 1843.11

Of course, they would have no listing of a super secret ceremony, because it was super secret!

[_Saw Skooh]

You're just upset that someone dares to use the facts to give a positive view of the situation.

This is like explaining something to a child with ADHD. I'm not sure why I bother, but here it goes for one last time: If you had read what I wrote (repeatedly), you'd see that what I've been saying (repeatedly) is that even the facts that you are offering are not all that positive. I've agreed (repeatedly) to concede to just your most minimal set of facts: Joseph Smith had Orson Hyde's wife married to himself for eternity with Orson's full knowledge. My point is that even this bare set of facts alone, even after you subtract any possibility of a secret sealing during Orson's mission or the suggestion of a second re-sealing for Orson's benefit, isn't nearly as positive as you're imagining it to be.

But again, maybe Greenmormon will return and tell us how positive that is to him/her. Who knows, maybe you've taken a load off of Greenmormon's mind with your facts and saved a fragile testimony.