A Sub-Cult Within the Cult

[_Always Changing]

Information on the General Authorities heading up the LDS:

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_gene ... ities.html

Which leads me to ask, do they ever appoint middle-class, or lower-class people to these prestigious positions of leadership in Mormonism? How about a Fisherman? And don't many of them have connections with the elite - descendents of Hyrum, or Kimball, or Young, etc.? Isn't their a privileged red carpet class in Mormonism?

You are preaching to D. Michael Quinn's fan-club. Have YOU read http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Hierar ... 1560850566 and http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Hierar ... 1560850604 ?

[_Servant]

Information on the General Authorities heading up the LDS:

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_gene ... ities.html

Which leads me to ask, do they ever appoint middle-class, or lower-class people to these prestigious positions of leadership in Mormonism? How about a Fisherman? And don't many of them have connections with the elite - descendents of Hyrum, or Kimball, or Young, etc.? Isn't their a privileged red carpet class in Mormonism?

You are preaching to D. Michael Quinn's fan-club. Have YOU read http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Hierar ... 1560850566 and http://www.amazon.com/The-Mormon-Hierar ... 1560850604 ?

I have "Mormonism and the Magic World View." The books you mention are very steeply priced even on Abebooks. What they did to Dr. Quinn was unforgivable.

[_maklelan]

Information on the General Authorities heading up the LDS:

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_gene ... ities.html

You'll believe anything that's the posted on the internet as long as it agrees with your dogmatism. Also, you don't seem to catch the irony of these two paragraphs:

Those who rise to the rank of Apostle must sell any business they own and renounce any board of directors for companies that are not directly own by the LDS Church . Generally those who reach Apostle sell their businesses and hand the money over to the LDS Church.

In 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the range of $60 to $80 thousand a year for living expenses, excluding benefits. This does not include any money received by business ventures or sitting on the board of directors for other companies. Most all General Authorities of the LDS Church are wealthy businessmen; most have companies whose income exceeds a million dollars a year.

So, these business moguls worth millions of dollars sell their businesses, renounce non-Church business relationships, give all their money to the Church, and then get paid $60-80K a year, in addition to benefits and whatever money they're making off of non-Church business relationships they just renounced (yeah, you read that right), and they're the ones making out like bandits? The lunacy of this notion is just blinding. Also, what is a "six digit figure"? Did the author mean "six figures"?

Which leads me to ask, do they ever appoint middle-class, or lower-class people to these prestigious positions of leadership in Mormonism?

Yes.

How about a Fisherman?

Don't know. I don't investigate the professional backgrounds of all the General Authorities.

And don't many of them have connections with the elite - descendents of Hyrum, or Kimball, or Young, etc.? Isn't their a privileged red carpet class in Mormonism?

Not really. If anything they get more scrutiny.

[_Markk]

This is laughable. There is no CC pastor that I personally know who makes near that much! Maybe some of the mega churches can pay their pastors that well, but most pastors struggle in this economy just like anybody else. Our CC pastor held a full time job in a Lumber Company, plus pastored when he started out. God blessed him and the church, and today it has a full school, 1-12, and one of the largest congregations in town (exceeding the Mormon "wards"). If the Word is preached, people will come - and it's not done for "filthy lucre," or "mandatory tithing." Christians do not make merchandise of men's souls.

Hi Catherine,

How much does your pastor make?

You do not live in So Ca Catherine. My old pastor has huge house, new/er cars, sends his kids to private schools, has motorcycles and toys...is he rich? no, not by any means... but he is doing good.

Orange county, LA, and San Diego housing demands a pastor makes that much to live in a decent neighborhood...In Orange County alone, which I would bet has the highest concentration of CC's...the median price for a home is over half a Million dollars...I doubt if one can qualify for a home there making less.

Living here in so ca, and going to retreats and seeing and listening to these guys...I can know for a fact they do alright...link here

Pearcy and Davis won't disclose salaries but say Coy makes below what pastors at comparable churches make. A survey by Capin Crouse, a CPA firm for non-profits that audits Calvary Chapel, found a salary range of $150,000 to $200,000 for pastors of megachurches.

This does not count book sales or speaking. When I was in leadership at a CC, when we would put on men's retreats, and I heard some CC pastors charge upwards of $500 or more to speak at your retreat... for a one or two hour session. The Murrieta campus, if you have been there can hold many retreats from different fellowships on the same weekend, it's a good gig and a great place to make a little cash for pastor that might be making less and struggling.

Have you been to a mega CC bookstore or coffee shop, gone to a Israel tour, or Cruise line tour?

I really don't have a problem with this, it is what it is. What I have a problem with is denying it is the truth...I did that as a Mormon, I do not do that anymore, the truth is the truth. Pastors take a lot of crap, work hard, put in 60 or more hour weeks, deal with morons like us all day, and if they grind out a good living then I really have no problem with that...unless they take advantage of it like Coy did. I would not want my Pastor struggling to get by.

MG

[_Servant]

This is laughable. There is no CC pastor that I personally know who makes near that much! Maybe some of the mega churches can pay their pastors that well, but most pastors struggle in this economy just like anybody else. Our CC pastor held a full time job in a Lumber Company, plus pastored when he started out. God blessed him and the church, and today it has a full school, 1-12, and one of the largest congregations in town (exceeding the Mormon "wards"). If the Word is preached, people will come - and it's not done for "filthy lucre," or "mandatory tithing." Christians do not make merchandise of men's souls.

Hi Catherine,

How much does your pastor make?

You do not live in So Ca Catherine. My old pastor has huge house, new/er cars, sends his kids to private schools, has motorcycles and toys...is he rich? no, not by any means... but he is doing good.

Orange county, LA, and San Diego housing demands a pastor makes that much to live in a decent neighborhood...In Orange County alone, which I would bet has the highest concentration of CC's...the median price for a home is over half a Million dollars...I doubt if one can qualify for a home there making less.

Living here in so ca, and going to retreats and seeing and listening to these guys...I can know for a fact they do all right...link here

Pearcy and Davis won't disclose salaries but say Coy makes below what pastors at comparable churches make. A survey by Capin Crouse, a CPA firm for non-profits that audits Calvary Chapel, found a salary range of $150,000 to $200,000 for pastors of megachurches.

This does not count book sales or speaking. When I was in leadership at a CC, when we would put on men's retreats, and I heard some CC pastors charge upwards of $500 or more to speak at your retreat... for a one or two hour session. The Murrieta campus, if you have been there can hold many retreats from different fellowships on the same weekend, it's a good gig and a great place to make a little cash for pastor that might be making less and struggling.

Have you been to a mega CC bookstore or coffee shop, gone to a Israel tour, or Cruise line tour?

I really don't have a problem with this, it is what it is. What I have a problem with is denying it is the truth...I did that as a Mormon, I do not do that anymore, the truth is the truth. Pastors take a lot of crap, work hard, put in 60 or more hour weeks, deal with morons like us all day, and if they grind out a good living then I really have no problem with that...unless they take advantage of it like Coy did. I would not want my Pastor struggling to get by.

MG

Look, we all know your big vendetta against CC - this forum is dedicated to Mormonism. You might want to take your questions to somebody who cares over on CARM where there is a forum to discuss CC. As far as I'm concerned, I want nothing to do with you.

[_EAllusion]

I am guessing here, but I think that is close. Are you sure about your numbers? I looked it up and 20% make 100k or more according to the US census. Nut at any rate it is what it is. How much do you think a pastor should make? The same as a plumber, carpenter, teacher...I don't know...what do you think?

17% of households make $100K+ annually (usually 2 adults and any number of children, adult or youth, working or otherwise). Only 7% of working individuals make that much.

I personally have no problem with a pastor of a larger church making $100K/year., provided everything's on the level and there are mechanisms for providing for the lower income members of the church.

http://www.whatsmypercent.com/

This is the website I used to do a quick and dirty calculation on that number. I was aware that 120k for an individual is at the very top of the American economy, so I wanted to put a more exact percentile number on it.

[_Markk]

And I bet you have no problems with the huge incomes of "the Brethren" either!

I have no problem with men (women) providing for their families at all. I had/have a problem when income of a church is not disclosed for the tithe payers to see. We are to be cheerful givers (from the heart) and should know if our giving is being used in the way we believe it should be used.

I would have a problem if I was still LDS and money was used for the mall. And I would have a problem if my pastor abused his income, even if on the outside...like driving a Porsche...even if he could afford it, they have a responsibility to a little humble.

There is a church I attend sometimes called sanctuary church the pastor is a very successful dentist, lives in a huge home, but does not take a penny for salary. He is very wealthy, and he is as discreet as he can be being wealthy. He does take two or three month off a year from teaching and the grind, to avoid burn out, and just becomes a member for that time.

Unfortunately not all pastors have this luxury, so again to answer your question to me GA drawing a salary is not a problem at all, to me the problem is/was, "we" as Mormons denied it and were not told how much they make putting us in a place we had to make excuses. I thought they did not get paid, when they did.

[_EAllusion]

So, these business moguls worth millions of dollars sell their businesses, renounce non-Church business relationships, give all their money to the Church, and then get paid $60-80K a year, in addition to benefits and whatever money they're making off of non-Church business relationships they just renounced (yeah, you read that right), and they're the ones making out like bandits? The lunacy of this notion is just blinding. Also, what is a "six digit figure"? Did the author mean "six figures"?

And books, and sweetheart corporate board appointments, etc. This also doesn't account for how nice the lifestyle furnished for them also is. People normally have to pay to fly on a private jet. They have to pay a lot. On the one hand, I'm not one to get as upset about the top leaders in a religious organization having a life of luxury. I have no religious objections to priest-craft and don't participate in a religion that tries to compare my unpaid leaders to the wicked salaries of pastors.

Though you are correct that many of the brethren probably could be doing better for themselves in the private sector. The real benefit is something that is much harder for money to buy. I believe this Conan the Barbarian clip illustrates it well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p2BjhSEnNI

The presidential office pays a pauper's salary compared to the kind of wealth the vast majority of people running for the office have. It's still worth it to them because the value isn't in the income.

[_maklelan]

And books, and sweetheart corporate board appointments, etc.

So you don't see the glaring contradiction of claiming they must give up "board of director" positions right before saying they continue to make lots of money from their "board of director" positions?

This also doesn't account for how nice the lifestyle furnished for them also is.

I know several general authorities, and they work more than anyone I have ever known. I don't think the lifestyles they maintain are particularly problematic.

People normally have to pay to fly on a private jet. They have to pay a lot. On the one hand, I'm not one to get as upset about the top leaders in a religious organization having a life of luxury. I have no religious objections to priest-craft and don't participate in a religion that tries to compare my unpaid leaders to the wicked salaries of pastors.

Am I doing that?

Though you are correct that many of the brethren probably could be doing better for themselves in the private sector. The real benefit is something that is much harder for money to buy. I believe this Conan the Barbarian clip illustrates it well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p2BjhSEnNI

The presidential pays a pauper's salary compared to the kind of wealth the vast majority of people running for the office have. It's still worth it to them because the value isn't in the income.

If only you could see how general authorities live and work.

[_Servant]

And books, and sweetheart corporate board appointments, etc.

So you don't see the glaring contradiction of claiming they must give up "board of director" positions right before saying they continue to make lots of money from their "board of director" positions?

This also doesn't account for how nice the lifestyle furnished for them also is.

I know several general authorities, and they work more than anyone I have ever known. I don't think the lifestyles they maintain are particularly problematic.

People normally have to pay to fly on a private jet. They have to pay a lot. On the one hand, I'm not one to get as upset about the top leaders in a religious organization having a life of luxury. I have no religious objections to priest-craft and don't participate in a religion that tries to compare my unpaid leaders to the wicked salaries of pastors.

Am I doing that?

Though you are correct that many of the brethren probably could be doing better for themselves in the private sector. The real benefit is something that is much harder for money to buy. I believe this Conan the Barbarian clip illustrates it well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p2BjhSEnNI

The presidential pays a pauper's salary compared to the kind of wealth the vast majority of people running for the office have. It's still worth it to them because the value isn't in the income.

If only you could see how general authorities live and work.

Sure! I'm sure they all live like monastic monks!