DiscussMormonism.com

Servant wrote:You might as well say mak is a stalker for continuously coming over to CARM and trumpeting how smart he is, and how dumb I am, and many others. Even though there are Christians over there better educated than is he.

No, you're confusing "better educated" with "agrees with my dogmatism."

Servant wrote:You see, if we visit mak - we're stalkers!

How many message boards have you visited for the purpose of starting threads that quote something I said in order either to challenge Mormons or to outrage other mainstream Christians? I know of four. How many message boards have I done that on? None. How many message boards have you followed me to in order to try to warn other posters about me and my hideousness? I know of two. How many message boards have I done that on? None. How many blogs have you followed me to comment on posts of mine with sectarian anti-Mormon drivel? At least one: my own. How many times have I done that to you? None. How many threads have you started using my full name and middle initial in order to attempt to ridicule or mock something I said? Over a dozen. How many times have I revealed you entire in real life name online? None. Shall we keep going, Catherine? You are a terrible and yet pathological liar, and it's made all the more terrible by your self righteous indignation about liars.

Servant wrote:If he comes over to CARM, with his hostile attitude he's a hero!

I've tried numerous times to start over with a clean slate on CARM, only to have one of about three or four perpetual posters over there immediately drag the discourse down into the mud with their bigotry and hatred. And I'm the bad guy. Here's an example of how much hatred and bigotry infests that board. One poster started a thread to praise the comportment of Markk, who also posts here, for being a balanced and overall level-headed poster. Apart from one or two brief posts of agreement, these were the responses:

So, Markk convinced you of your sin? You have renounced Mormonism? Richard, I have attempt to be civil with you numerous times, yet your antics keep getting in the way. None of the Christians here brought Gods Delusion upon the LDS people, they, of themselves, have chosen to exchange Gods Truth for a lie of men. If the method of presenting His Truth per His Word is difficult for the LDS to stomach, I would suggest repenting of the sin that is Mormonism. To deny His Truth does not create a new truth, just more denial.

And we need fewer Mormon posters like you, Ralfie...who runs away at every turn...Hmmm

Well, Ralfie...opinions are like you-know-whats...everyone has one. And all I know is you have an apparent intellectual honesty problem with all of your aliases, RICHARD...

Oh, and here's your response, Catherine:

Can't you see a thread that is intended to be divisive? Use some discernment there. This forum is not for lauding certain individuals. Father is right, we could use less Mormons like Ralfie, and just one Mormon who can give rational responses to legitimate questions. Don't be a tool!

Here's another of yours:

We have seen no repentance, no work of the Holy Spirit, in the lives of the Mormons here. We can only hope that our posts keep others from involving themselves in this evil system, from inviting the delusion into their lives.

And from others:

Amen Catherine, I read the OP, and sensed a spirit of division, in fact in almost got to me too. Then I saw it for what is was, It isn't about Markk (no harm intended Mark) but rather to incite divisiveness.

Note the OP invited positive comments about Markk, and immediately the sectarians set upon him with their sectarianism, and then blamed him for starting divisiveness. It really staggers the imagination, doesn't it?

Servant wrote:The fact is, mak is a higher textual critic, and is always harping about talking donkeys and floating ax heads.

Mainly because you and yours believe in talking donkeys because you say so, but laugh at the notion of Jews building boats and sailing to America, because that's impossible. The flagrant and astounding hypocrisy still doesn't seem to have broken through the tough outer shell of your blind and belligerent dogmatism.

Servant wrote:But, if you ask him to prove the existence of Nephites or Jaredite subs - off he goes, stalking away claiming persecution.

I've never done any such thing. I've always been up front about the fact that there's no proof of any Mormon faith claim, just like there's no proof of any of your faith claims. When I point out that we're all in the same empirical canoe up a creek and without a paddle, either I get told that Jerusalem's a real city, so the Bible has to be true, or I get banned for talking about the Bible.

Servant wrote:So, Mormons should grow up a little and learn that sometimes Christians might have some valid points.

Yeah, sometimes they do, and I remember when I agreed with you on one of your valid points. It took four posts of you belligerently barking at me before you actually realized that I was repeatedly telling you I agreed with you. You really betrayed how well you pay attention with that one, and then instead of acknowledging that I was actually agreeing with you, you just yelled at me some more and then abandoned the thread.

Servant wrote:By the way, I didn't ask your pal to post on this thread, did I. See what I mean? He jumped at the chance!

I don't know what you're talking about.

Servant wrote:That's interesting. Aren't Mormons essentially Universalists (Smith's ancestors were)?

See, this is why I keep telling you to stop pretending you know what Mormonism is.

Servant wrote:The pantheist concept is interesting - Christians believe God is Omnipresent, Immanent and also Transcendent. Mormonism limits god to some kind of human body - the Mormon deity being essentially an exalted human being.

Hey, if anthropomorphism was good enough for the authors of the Old and New Testaments, why isn't it good enough for you? Oh, that's right, you plug your ears and shut your eyes and get me banned when it's pointed out that all Jews and Christians believed God had a physical body until the second and third century CE. Would hate for any of you to actually have to defend any of the claims that you use to attack Mormonism. Obviously you can't and won't do so here.

Servant wrote:So you were "uninvited" to participate in Mormonism. Consider yourself blessed! You might want to research Christianity - what you may have learned about Christianity from Mormon sources is distorted.

I agree with you there. Most Mormons horribly distort mainstream Christianity, just like you and most of CARM horribly distort Mormonism. On the other hand, leaving Mormonism for Christianity is like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The only actual ideological competition with Mormonism of any real significance is agnosticism/atheism.

Servant wrote:Mak is not that important in the big picture.

Which is why you follow my blog and repost my comments on multiple different message boards and look up my profile on LinkedIn.

Servant wrote:I just don't like how he treats Christians on CARM.

No one likes to have their prejudices and fallacies pointed out to them.

Servant wrote:However, I came here long ago, and don't generally interact with him at all. I certainly don't chase him around, as he contends, and as you apparently bought into.

Would you like me to show all the times you've posted my comments on other message boards, or how many times and under how many different names you've commented on my blog, or how many different times over the last six years you've posted and reposted your little gripe with my comments about Gen 1:4?

Servant wrote:I do like to read the threads over here because they are informative as to what is currently going on in the Mormon community.

At least, in a community of certain types of people who are largely critical of Mormonism.

Servant wrote:I also go to other Mormon sites and blogs. The Mormons who post on CARM are mostly TBMs and refuse to discuss any possibility that Mormonism may not be all it's cracked up to be.

Just like you refuse to discuss anything having to do with the Bible, preferring rather to ban me from the message board.

Servant wrote:And speaking of "stalking," we have on Mormon on CARM whom I have had on ignore forever because he posted personal information about me publicly - apparently garnered from board messages. He also publicly posted messages I had put up on CARM onto another site. So, save your comments about stalking for someone else, and don't be so quick to believe everything that is posted.

Interestingly, when this board was mentioned on CARM, the TBMs said this place is fully of Atheists and Agnostics! You see how quickly Mormons turn on Mormons?

Huh?

Servant,

What does Matt 25 say?

What is the key message of that chapter?

Are you the Director, or are you another actor, just like the rest of us?

Are you here to tell everyone how they should act, how they should think, and how they should believe?

Are you in charge of straightening people out, or is God in charge of the show?

When He (the least of them) was naked, did you clothe Him?

When He (the least of them) was in jail, did you visit Him?

When He (the least of them) was hungry, did you feed Him?

You mock and condemn the supposed sinners here, Jesus dined with them and taught them.

maklelan wrote:

Servant wrote:That's interesting. Aren't Mormons essentially Universalists (Smith's ancestors were)?

See, this is why I keep telling you to stop pretending you know what Mormonism is.

Servant wrote:The pantheist concept is interesting - Christians believe God is Omnipresent, Immanent and also Transcendent. Mormonism limits god to some kind of human body - the Mormon deity being essentially an exalted human being.

Hey, if anthropomorphism was good enough for the authors of the Old and New Testaments, why isn't it good enough for you? Oh, that's right, you plug your ears and shut your eyes and get me banned when it's pointed out that all Jews and Christians believed God had a physical body until the second and third century CE. Would hate for any of you to actually have to defend any of the claims that you use to attack Mormonism. Obviously you can't and won't do so here.

Servant wrote:So you were "uninvited" to participate in Mormonism. Consider yourself blessed! You might want to research Christianity - what you may have learned about Christianity from Mormon sources is distorted.

I agree with you there. Most Mormons horribly distort mainstream Christianity, just like you and most of CARM horribly distort Mormonism. On the other hand, leaving Mormonism for Christianity is like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The only actual ideological competition with Mormonism of any real significance is agnosticism/atheism.

Asael Smith, Joe's grandfather, held Universalist views, and here it is right from a Mormon site:

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-an ... seph-smith

Futhermore, when you consider almost everybody, according to the three heavens belief Smith taught, acquires a degree of salvation after death, and the only ones who do not are apostates, this is certainly very close to Universlist belief.

Servant wrote:Asael Smith, Joe's grandfather, held Universalist views, and here it is right from a Mormon site:

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-an ... seph-smith

And what does that have to do with contemporary Mormonism?

Servant wrote:Futhermore, when you consider almost everybody, according to the three heavens belief Smith taught, acquires a degree of salvation after death, and the only ones who do not are apostates, this is certainly very close to Universlist belief.

No, this is not "very close to Universlist belief," this is somewhat similar to Universalist belief if you squint hard enough for the blurry edges to run together and ignore all the details that distinguish the concepts.

maklelan wrote:

Servant wrote:Asael Smith, Joe's grandfather, held Universalist views, and here it is right from a Mormon site:

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/doctrine-an ... seph-smith

And what does that have to do with contemporary Mormonism?

Servant wrote:Futhermore, when you consider almost everybody, according to the three heavens belief Smith taught, acquires a degree of salvation after death, and the only ones who do not are apostates, this is certainly very close to Universlist belief.

No, this is not "very close to Universlist belief," this is somewhat similar to Universalist belief if you squint hard enough for the blurry edges to run together and ignore all the details that distinguish the concepts.

Universalism, with which I am familiar mak, teaches that eventually all men will repent and receive salvation. That's exactly what Smith's grandfather believed according to the Mormon site linked to. Mormonism's degrees of salvation is similar because just about all men are saved to some degree. If you understood Universalist beliefs you'd see it right away.

Servant wrote:Universalism, with which I am familiar mak, teaches that eventually all men will repent and receive salvation.

And Mormonism does not teach that. Additionally, that's a broad description, but universalism is a complex constellation of many other things as well. Saying that Mormonism is "very close to universalist belief" because there is one somewhat similar belief is like saying South Africa is basically the United States, since English is widely used in both countries. You're just using broad generalizations to make silly connections for rhetoric impact.

Servant wrote:That's exactly what Smith's grandfather believed according to the Mormon site linked to. Mormonism's degrees of salvation is similar because just about all men are saved to some degree. If you understood Universalist beliefs you'd see it right away.

Well, first off, not all humans are saved to some degree, and second, there are more vast differences between the two ideologies than similarities. Good grief, Catherine, this is incredibly naïve and juvenile.

Markk wrote: Moderation is similar to MAD, not quite as bad but there are folks there that are nanny's that will report anything you say they do not like, LoL...my post here will be reported or at the least spread through the gossip line ( I am not kidding).

Yikes! Sounds like they need to get out more and coming over here is a good start. by the way, knowing that CARM does this should make us feel less peculiar with that return and report stuff at you know where.

The Universalists were so good back in the 1800's. Preachers from more traditional perspectives would travel around in a circuit stirring up the Early Americans with talk of hellfire and brimstone. The Universalists would ride their circuit about a week later preaching the love of God. This let many have a well deserved night's sleep not having to worry about burning in everlasting hellfire. Do you think CARM would benefit from a visit by those same Universalists? I fear they might be consigned to hellfire and brimstone banishment at MD&D (MAD).

Servant wrote:You mean not respond to him when I'm attacked - as I just did on another thread? Sorry, pal, I stick up for myself and for my faith and don't take kindly to rudeness.

You don't seem to mind dishing it out, though.

Servant wrote: I have just as much a right to post here as anybody else, and I don't use vulgar language, either. If you don't like what I post, I suggest you report me.

Very true! You do have a right to post here. I don't remember mentioning that you do use vulgar language. I've only reported one poster in my life on the boards and that was for making some serious personal threats towards another poster. This person had some real mental issues.

Servant wrote: And by the way, what do you know about Christians since you are not one?

Some of my best friends are Christian.

Seriously, I do have many friends that self identify as Christian and I have read all the books.