Servant says...

[_Markk]

Well, we disagree, then. I think it's obvious that LDS theology is not orthodox or mainstream theology, but it is a Christian theology. I've always thought that a just God wouldn't care if you got the details wrong, as long as you trusted in the Savior to save you from sin.

I think about my wife. Does she believe she can have the same power and knowledge that God does? I don't know that she's ever thought of it. I go back to my Mormon days, and I don't think I ever believed that. Does she believe she can earn or pay for Christ's suffering? No, and neither did I when I was a believing Mormon. In fact, I don't know many Mormons who believe they earn or pay for Christ's suffering, though I'm told by several Christians that Mormons are supposed to believe that.

Oh, well. I'm still trying to figure out if I believe in God at all, so worrying about who is a real Christian isn't high on my list of priorities.

Hi John,

And your post is my point in my last post...I believe you do not believe that you can have the same power and knowledge of God. I believe you, and your wife, do not believe you can not buy or earn Christ's sufferings...I believe that with all my heart...but LDS theology teaches it, and demands it...and that is why I wrote in my last post that it is LDS "theology" that is not Christian, and God knows who is, and who is not a Christian. I promise I will never judge you and your heart, I have enough problems figuring out my own...I know what it is capable of in thought and action, and it is not pretty, especially in 30 years ago.

Someday maybe we can talk a little more and I will share some of that crap that is in my closet, please don't think I am some kind of saint, and I have it all figured out, I don't. Being a Christian is trusting in Him to do everything.

Go back and read my last post again, I think way may agree more than we may think.

[_Runtu]

Hi John,

And your post is my point in my last post...I believe you do not believe that you can have the same power and knowledge of God. I believe you, and your wife, do not believe you can not buy or earn Christ's sufferings...I believe that with all my heart...but LDS theology teaches it, and demands it...and that is why I wrote in my last post that it is LDS "theology" that is not Christian, and God knows who is, and who is not a Christian. I promise I will never judge you and your heart, I have enough problems figuring out my own...I know what it is capable of in thought and action, and it is not pretty, especially in 30 years ago.

Someday maybe we can talk a little more and I will share some of that crap that is in my closet, please don't think I am some kind of saint, and I have it all figured out, I don't. Being a Christian is trusting in Him to do everything.

Go back and read my last post again, I think way may agree more than we may think.

I'm not worried about you judging my heart or anyone else's. I do think that you overstate LDS doctrine and theology, but then I think it probably has to do with viewing things through an Evangelical prism. I don't see the "earning salvation" stuff in LDS theology, but I do agree that the LDS church does teach that humans can become exactly like God. I'm just not sure very many people actually believe that.

Either way, as I said, I'm trying to find reasons to believe in God at all these days, and I'm having a hard time with it.

[_Markk]

Hi John,

And your post is my point in my last post...I believe you do not believe that you can have the same power and knowledge of God. I believe you, and your wife, do not believe you can not buy or earn Christ's sufferings...I believe that with all my heart...but LDS theology teaches it, and demands it...and that is why I wrote in my last post that it is LDS "theology" that is not Christian, and God knows who is, and who is not a Christian. I promise I will never judge you and your heart, I have enough problems figuring out my own...I know what it is capable of in thought and action, and it is not pretty, especially in 30 years ago.

Someday maybe we can talk a little more and I will share some of that crap that is in my closet, please don't think I am some kind of saint, and I have it all figured out, I don't. Being a Christian is trusting in Him to do everything.

Go back and read my last post again, I think way may agree more than we may think.

I'm not worried about you judging my heart or anyone else's. I do think that you overstate LDS doctrine and theology, but then I think it probably has to do with viewing things through an Evangelical prism. I don't see the "earning salvation" stuff in LDS theology, but I do agree that the LDS church does teach that humans can become exactly like God. I'm just not sure very many people actually believe that.

Either way, as I said, I'm trying to find reasons to believe in God at all these days, and I'm having a hard time with it.

Hi John,

I came to my conclusions as a Mormon, before I was a evangelical...no way around that.

JFS once wrote that 'he wished that Jesus could save us but He can't, we have to do it on our own'...paraphrase. There are many teaching on merit and duty like this I could not get away from...there is a verse in the Bible that says, again paraphrasing...' if you work it is counted as debt and not Grace...' for me that trumped all the merit and duty and works I was suppose to do, that I couldn't.

[_Megacles]

Hi John,

I came to my conclusions as a Mormon, before I was a evangelical...no way around that.

JFS once wrote that 'he wished that Jesus could save us but He can't, we have to do it on our own'...paraphrase. There are many teaching on merit and duty like this I could not get away from...there is a verse in the Bible that says, again paraphrasing...' if you work it is counted as debt and not Grace...' for me that trumped all the merit and duty and works I was suppose to do, that I couldn't.

Hi there, Markk. I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

I seems to me that the Bible says whatever its readers want it to say. For example, you paraphrase something about works equaling debt and not grace; Mormons like myself point to where James says faith without works is dead. Among other issues the saved-by-grace-alone philosophy has (in my view), it seems to be that the Bible supports both it and saved-by-grace+works.

[_Runtu]

Hi there, Markk. I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

I seems to me that the Bible says whatever its readers want it to say. For example, you paraphrase something about works equaling debt and not grace; Mormons like myself point to where James says faith without works is dead. Among other issues the saved-by-grace-alone philosophy has (in my view), it seems to be that the Bible supports both it and saved-by-grace+works.

That's why we need people like Servant to summarize the Bible so we can all understand it properly.

[_Markk]

Hi there, Markk. I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

I seems to me that the Bible says whatever its readers want it to say. For example, you paraphrase something about works equaling debt and not grace; Mormons like myself point to where James says faith without works is dead. Among other issues the saved-by-grace-alone philosophy has (in my view), it seems to be that the Bible supports both it and saved-by-grace+works.

Hi Megacles,

No jump in...

Here is the verse in context.

Rom 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

I understand the arguments very well, and that is why I said the things I said to John. The LDS church teaches, as you understand and stated...you have to do to get, if you don't do, you don't get.

Personally I don't believe there is nothing I can do more, that He did on the cross, that merits my salvation.


Here is the exact text that JFS wrote..."Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation vol 3 page 5.


Faith without works is dead, if one believes they can be a believer and not show fruits of being so then your belief is a said belief, and not belief of the heart, I came to that conclusion.

And what added to all this as a saint , was that it was really more to do with obedience to a law (of eternal progression), than of God, and the works were more of ordinances and rituals...not feeding and clothing a hungry brother or sister as James wrote as his example. For me...it was if the LDS church was going to hang their hat on James, they should start on the streets and soup kitchens in Salt Lake, instead of the hidden rooms of the temple.

Thoughts
MG

[Guest]

The only people who go to Hell are those who reject the Gospel. God sends no person to Hell, they send themselves. I believe there are some people in the Mormon Church who are Christians, and who for various reasons find themselves in the LDS, but who love God. You see, all who God calls, will come to Jesus. It's not our place to tell anybody if they are a sheep - God alone knows His sheep, and they follow Jesus' voice, and a stranger they do not follow.

I believe there are some people in the Mormon Church who are Christians

Catherine,

LoL...Didn't you just scold me for saying this a few weeks ago?

Mark

Nope, I don't believe a person holding Mormon beliefs about God and Jesus are in the body of Christ. Those who believe in the Triune God, and the Biblical Christ and for some reason are still in Mormonism, may be saved. I'll leave that in God's hands - because I believe that all those God CALLS (Particular call) will come to Jesus. John 10.

However, I don't need YOU to interpret my posts, Markk, nor do I want you. So, I'll happily bow out and they can change this thread's title to "Markk says."

[_Servant]

Works are the evidence of a saving faith and a regenerated spirit - works are not the means to salvation. That is what James is speaking of - he certainly is not saying that works are the means of regeneration.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Works are the evidence of a saving faith and a regenerated spirit - works are not the means to salvation. That is what James is speaking of - he certainly is not saying that works are the means of regeneration.

What Bible uses the phrase "regenerated spirit?"

[_Sethbag]

Servant, it certainly looks to me and many others that you belong to a cult.

How does it feel to be in a cult, anyway, Servant? You know, they say that inside the cult it all feels and seems perfectly normal, and perfectly reasonable. It's only once you're outside the cult that you realize how "off" it all is/was.