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Runtu,

You brought up a very timely point, and one that I hadn't before considered.

Runtu wrote:So, then you are confirming that it isn't grace or the atoning blood of Jesus that saves, but rather it is having the correct conception of the nature of God that saves.

I think this hits at the heart of the matter with such force that I cannot fathom how Servant or some other evangelical Christians can answer it.

Am I not saved by the grace and atoning blood of Jesus Christ by merely existing as a mortal? If you say I must first accept him as my lord and savior, then you have included works in the salvation process have you not?

Megacles wrote:I think this hits at the heart of the matter with such force that I cannot fathom how Servant or some other evangelical Christians can answer it.

Am I not saved by the grace and atoning blood of Jesus Christ by merely existing as a mortal? If you say I must first accept him as my lord and savior, then you have included works in the salvation process have you not?

Hi Megacles,

No... you are not if you accept the Bible as your bench mark. If you follow LDS theology then yes... in part. LDS theology teaches two salvations, unconditional and personal salvations.

The former is given to all, less the SOP, no matter what one believes. The latter being by merit and duty, as I laid out in the last post I wrote to you.

Read John 3:16, and 18. And John 1:12,13 if you are interested in what evangelicals believe. Ask if you do not understand the context of my point.

Believing is not a work...again as the Romans verse I gave you in my last post reads, in that Paul clearly explains the difference between works and belief. one is accounted for Grace, the other as debt.

If you are going to insist that believing in Christ is a work, then every LDS member that believes in Christ on the Sabbath, is breaking the Sabbath...unless they cease to believe on Sundays. Kind of a silly example, but very true using that logic.

thoughts?

MG

Yahoo Bot wrote:

Runtu wrote:
So, then you are confirming that it isn't grace or the atoning blood of Jesus that saves, but rather it is having the correct conception of the nature of God that saves.

Why do I find this flavor of Christianity so utterly dispiriting?

Which flavors of Christianity do you find acceptable and not dispiriting? Don't give me that New Age crapola, but you likely will.

Just when I think you can't be any more of a douche, you prove me wrong.

Yahoo Bot wrote:Which flavors of Christianity do you find acceptable and not dispiriting? Don't give me that New Age crapola, but you likely will.

Bob,

I think you are misunderstanding what Runtu is saying. He doesn't deserve this.

Yahoo Bot wrote:Whoda thunk? An Ayn Rand acolyte.

Another cheap shot. Oh, well. I can think of worse things than being the object of your derision.

Religions exist to worship God, not to improve the human condition. If one worships God, the human condition improves.

That's how it is supposed to work. The Book of Mormon puts it nicely, in my opinion: "Come unto Christ and be perfected in Him." That's the kind of religion I find worthwhile.

The religion Servant is describing is neither about worshipping God or improving the human condition. It's more of a true/false test about certain points of doctrine, and that's what I find dispiriting.

But the converse is not true.

I don't believe anyone here is talking about the converse. I am not, anyway.

Ceeboo says......

What can be found at the very core of what Jesus taught while amongst us on earth?

Love
Compassion
Helping
Forgiveness
Humility
Humbleness
Patience
Understanding

For anyone trying to follow his example/teachings - the attempt to be Christ-like (yes, we all fail miserably at times), I would suggest that they are Christians.

for what it's worth, I have engaged several Mormons over the years who I consider my Christian Brothers and Sisters (I've told a few that I think Mormonism is Christianity on steroids). I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings. MercynGrace (over at the MDDB) is a great example of what I'm trying to suggest.

In short, I think the Christian churches/religions are loaded with people who loudly proclaim (demand in many cases) the personal privilege and authority of labeling who is Christian and who is not.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, the cement they often use to wildly apply these labels on and across individual human beings (as well as entire groups of human beings) is cement that they have mixed together, using ingredients that they chose to place in the wheel-barrel. Perhaps, this is why the cement is weak and thus has so many challenges in the binding process.

in my opinion, we "Christians" all ought to throw our cement and wheel-barrels away and replace them with water and wheel-chairs....just in case we cross paths with someone who is thirsty and/or could really use a lift.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo wrote:Ceeboo says......

What can be found at the very core of what Jesus taught while amongst us on earth?

Love
Compassion
Helping
Forgiveness
Humility
Humbleness
Patience
Understanding

For anyone trying to follow his example/teachings - the attempt to be Christ-like (yes, we all fail miserably at times), I would suggest that they are Christians.

for what it's worth, I have engaged several Mormons over the years who I consider my Christian Brothers and Sisters (I've told a few that I think Mormonism is Christianity on steroids). I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings. MercynGrace (over at the MDDB) is a great example of what I'm trying to suggest.

In short, I think the Christian churches/religions are loaded with people who loudly proclaim (demand in many cases) the personal privilege and authority of labeling who is Christian and who is not.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, the cement they often use to wildly apply these labels on and across individual human beings (as well as entire groups of human beings) is cement that they have mixed together, using ingredients that they chose to place in the wheel-barrel. Perhaps, this is why the cement is weak and thus has so many challenges in the binding process.

in my opinion, we "Christians" all ought to throw our cement and wheel-barrels away and replace them with water and wheel-chairs....just in case we cross paths with someone who is thirsty and/or could really use a lift.

Peace,
Ceeboo

This is one of those examples of why I love your insights so much, Ceeboo (even though you're dead wrong about the brethren being unbelievers).

in my opinion, being a Christian is about who you are and what you do, not what you say or which creed you accept. It's about accepting Christ and allowing Him into your life to bless and sanctify you. One of my favorite quotes of all time is this one from Ezra Taft Benson.

Men and women who turn their lives over to God will discover that He can make a lot more out of their lives than they can. He will deepen their joys, expand their vision, quicken their minds, strengthen their muscles, lift their spirits, multiply their blessings, increase their opportunities, comfort their souls, raise up friends, and pour out peace. Whoever will lose his life in the service of God will find eternal life (see Matthew 10:39). (Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, 7 December 1986)

This is what I've been trying to say, despite Bob's attempts to turn me into a Rand "acolyte." What I keep hearing from Servant is that the important thing is to have a correct definition of who or what God is and that everything else is secondary. If I read her correctly, she's saying that God won't even listen to people, let alone bless their lives, until they accept certain creeds. To me, that is what is dispiriting.

What I believe, and I have to keep reminding myself, is that God is the judge and he does the judging and what does he judge, he judges the heart. Life works better for me if I can remember that and apply it to my life.

I think this fits into Ceeboo's and Runtu's last posts.

Ceeboo wrote:Ceeboo says......

I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings.
Peace,
Ceeboo

Sig line worthy.

Ceeboo wrote:Ceeboo says......

What can be found at the very core of what Jesus taught while amongst us on earth?

Love
Compassion
Helping
Forgiveness
Humility
Humbleness
Patience
Understanding

For anyone trying to follow his example/teachings - the attempt to be Christ-like (yes, we all fail miserably at times), I would suggest that they are Christians.

for what it's worth, I have engaged several Mormons over the years who I consider my Christian Brothers and Sisters (I've told a few that I think Mormonism is Christianity on steroids). I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings. MercynGrace (over at the MDDB) is a great example of what I'm trying to suggest.

In short, I think the Christian churches/religions are loaded with people who loudly proclaim (demand in many cases) the personal privilege and authority of labeling who is Christian and who is not.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, the cement they often use to wildly apply these labels on and across individual human beings (as well as entire groups of human beings) is cement that they have mixed together, using ingredients that they chose to place in the wheel-barrel. Perhaps, this is why the cement is weak and thus has so many challenges in the binding process.

in my opinion, we "Christians" all ought to throw our cement and wheel-barrels away and replace them with water and wheel-chairs....just in case we cross paths with someone who is thirsty and/or could really use a lift.

Peace,
Ceeboo

As is so often the case, Ceeboo, I am on the same page with you.

While I understand something about why Christians engage in "boundary maintenance" and have done some of that myself in the past, I just can't and don't land there anymore.

As Tator wrote above, God looks on the heart.

Ceeboo, I love that you mentioned mercyngrace as an example of Christlikeness, as I've always seen that in her. And I have friends within the Mormon faith whose devotion to Christ I find beautiful.

To go along with your description of a Christ-follower I can't help but think of what to me are key biblical passages about what pleasing God is all about, found in Jesus' core teaching in the Sermon on the Mount (in Matthew and Luke) as well as:

Micah 6:8: He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Jesus' own mission in his own words ... and surely our mission too! in Luke 4:18-19:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[a]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

Just this past week (on another topic, but I see some relevance) we saw a clip of Tony Campolo in our Sunday service where he said something I want to take to heart: "Christians talk about loving the sinner but hating the sin. But Jesus didn't say that ... He said love the sinner and hate your own sin ... and only after that can you even begin to think about the sin of others".

I find that it's too easy to worry about (which usually means to be judgmental about!) what others think and do, when we really should be focusing on how we're doing ourselves with God's 2 great commandments .. i.e. loving the Lord with all our hearts, minds and strength and loving others as ourselves.

What a great distillation:

Love God.

Love people.