Markk wrote:This is "Servants" latest saying, and she wonders why I say she posts crap...Catherine...They may be sincerely deceived young men and women, but hardly parasites. I hope she does not ever do a thread on LDS and Prozac, in that my gut feeling is that it would be very hypocritical.
Markk wrote:This is "Servants" latest saying, and she wonders why I say she posts crap...Catherine...They may be sincerely deceived young men and women, but hardly parasites. I hope she does not ever do a thread on LDS and Prozac, in that my gut feeling is that it would be very hypocritical.
I don't think people understand how transparent these kinds of things are. Such posts are never motivated by love of God or one's fellowbeings but usually have their roots in anger, hurt feelings, or resentment.
Most of us--even parasite missionaries--know when someone genuinely cares about us, and we are much more likely to listen. As it is, I'm not inclined to pay much attention to what Servant says.
Megacles wrote:Which part of the Bible? James? Romans? The Bible does not, to my knowledge, ever state that by faith/grace alone we are saved. These words are always accompanied by something about works.
Markk wrote:Hi Megacles
Well, I gave you a verse in Romans, twice, that says "belief=Grace," and "works =debt." lets start there and we can go on to text that show belief without works? fair?
I do not know if that is fair, Markk. It seems like you are selecting one very specific verse--out of context--on which to build your entire argument, while I am asking if the Bible generally speaks about being saved by grace alone.
A verse here or there might support your argument, but let us not fall into something that that might eventually resemble a base rate bias.
Megacles wrote:Which part of the Bible? James? Romans? The Bible does not, to my knowledge, ever state that by faith/grace alone we are saved. These words are always accompanied by something about works.
Markk wrote:Hi Megacles
Well, I gave you a verse in Romans, twice, that says "belief=Grace," and "works =debt." lets start there and we can go on to text that show belief without works? fair?
I do not know if that is fair, Markk. It seems like you are selecting one very specific verse--out of context--on which to build your entire argument, while I am asking if the Bible generally speaks about being saved by grace alone.
A verse here or there might support your argument, but let us not fall into something that that might eventually resemble a base rate bias.
Hi megacles
How did I take it out of context? Please support that assertion...Explain to me what Paul meant here? When you are done there I will go to the next verse, and so on and so on. You don't have to believe the verses, but we can objectively look at them.
If you believe I have built my argument on one verse then we have a lot to discuss...are you willing...is that fair?
Thanks MG
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
What can be found at the very core of what Jesus taught while amongst us on earth?
Love Compassion Helping Forgiveness Humility Humbleness Patience Understanding
For anyone trying to follow his example/teachings - the attempt to be Christ-like (yes, we all fail miserably at times), I would suggest that they are Christians.
for what it's worth, I have engaged several Mormons over the years who I consider my Christian Brothers and Sisters (I've told a few that I think Mormonism is Christianity on steroids). I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings. MercynGrace (over at the MDDB) is a great example of what I'm trying to suggest.
In short, I think the Christian churches/religions are loaded with people who loudly proclaim (demand in many cases) the personal privilege and authority of labeling who is Christian and who is not. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the cement they often use to wildly apply these labels on and across individual human beings (as well as entire groups of human beings) is cement that they have mixed together, using ingredients that they chose to place in the wheel-barrel. Perhaps, this is why the cement is weak and thus has so many challenges in the binding process.
in my opinion, we "Christians" all ought to throw our cement and wheel-barrels away and replace them with water and wheel-chairs....just in case we cross paths with someone who is thirsty and/or could really use a lift.
Peace, Ceeboo
Wow Ceeboo! This is the best post I've seen from you yet! I have never heard anyone state it better!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
What can be found at the very core of what Jesus taught while amongst us on earth?
Love Compassion Helping Forgiveness Humility Humbleness Patience Understanding
For anyone trying to follow his example/teachings - the attempt to be Christ-like (yes, we all fail miserably at times), I would suggest that they are Christians.
for what it's worth, I have engaged several Mormons over the years who I consider my Christian Brothers and Sisters (I've told a few that I think Mormonism is Christianity on steroids). I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings. MercynGrace (over at the MDDB) is a great example of what I'm trying to suggest.
In short, I think the Christian churches/religions are loaded with people who loudly proclaim (demand in many cases) the personal privilege and authority of labeling who is Christian and who is not. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the cement they often use to wildly apply these labels on and across individual human beings (as well as entire groups of human beings) is cement that they have mixed together, using ingredients that they chose to place in the wheel-barrel. Perhaps, this is why the cement is weak and thus has so many challenges in the binding process.
in my opinion, we "Christians" all ought to throw our cement and wheel-barrels away and replace them with water and wheel-chairs....just in case we cross paths with someone who is thirsty and/or could really use a lift.
Peace, Ceeboo
Wow Ceeboo! This is the best post I've seen from you yet! I have never heard anyone state it better!
Ceeboo is like a well that is both deep and effervescent.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
hey steel head,
Not sure what your point is? If one is going to say they are a Christian and do not have compassion for others, then ones faith isn't really a saving faith, but a said faith. Abraham and others works are a fruit of their faith.
I understand the arguments quite well, after all I was just as Mormon as most here, I just chose another path. It's been years, but I took a New Testament survey class at a Bible college and there are scores of verses and thought that show salvation is by belief...and very few verses that like the above that are less clear.
If LDS believe that faith without work is dead in a literal sense as in James, then they are failing miserably in that they make it about temple crap and not feeding the folks.
Thanks MG
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Argument? I don't have one. To me the whole notion of sin and redemption from sin via the sacrifice of animals or a human/deity is a ridiculous notion, regardless if said redemption is via faith & grace or faith & works. It is all nonsense to me.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
SteelHead wrote:Argument? I don't have one. To me the whole notion of sin and redemption from sin via the sacrifice of animals or a human/deity is a ridiculous notion, regardless if said redemption is via faith & grace or faith & works. It is all nonsense to me.
Hi SH,
Okay great, I just did not understand why you responded with "our" standard comebacks?
Thanks MG
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
