Servant says...

[_Fence Sitter]

I read on the net that there had been about 150 different sects of Mormonism sinceits founding, but if you think that it's higher, that's fine with me. What about the sentence didn't you grasp?

I was wondering where you got the number mostly. My number ( over 400) is based on groups that came into existence since Joseph Smith's time, most of which no longer exist in any form, and the balance, with the exceptions I noted above and maybe a few others, are insignificantly small. I was wondering when you threw out the 150 number if you actually thought that meant there were 150 different viable and competing versions of Mormonism today in the world. There are not.

[_Megacles]

Sorry, but you are failing to make the distinction between Continuing Anglicans (of which I am a part) and Episcopalians and other liberal Anglican groups.

Continuing Anglicans are evangelicals, are conservative in their interpretation of the Scriptures, support Right to Life and Traditional Marriage, and do not ordain homosexuals or female priests (although some allow female deacons, but not as a regular "holy order.") There are several continuing Anglican churches - United Episcopal, Anglican Episcopal, Orthodox Episcopal, Anglican Church in N.A. (the largest) Reformed Episcopal and Anglican Catholic. Most of these groups meet together and cooperate on different levels.

Servant, thanks very much for the half-answer. My question was why are you Anglican at all? You say that Anglican beliefs can be found in the Nicene Creed, but thousands of other churches say the same thing. So, why Anglicanism?

[_Darth J]

So your point is that the Gospel of Christ is false since some Christians (or nominal Christians) blew it?

Undoubtedly they were not true Scotsmen.

Maybe Mormonism is totally false since a squad of Mormons summarily executed 120 unarmed men, women and children of the Fancher party, right?

No, Mormonism is totally false for any number of other reasons. But Mormon teachings of the time condoned what happened, and Wilford Woodruff recorded in his diary that Brigham Young expressed his agreement with what happened ("Vengeance is mine, and I have taken a little"). So in that regard, the Mountain Meadows Massacre is similar to the atrocities supported by Christian leaders and Christian teachings.

You know, I was going ask if you really are this stupid that you think people on this board who openly and repeatedly express their rejection of Mormon truth claims somehow actually believe in Mormon truth claims.

I was going to ask. But then that question sort of answers itself.

[_Runtu]

And there's the Allred group which practices a form of Mormonism close to the Utah original.

That's a problem, as how can you call the Utah church "original"? The Utah church of the 1850s was quite different from the Nauvoo church of the 1840s, which was in turn radically different from the Kirtland church of the 1830s. The problem in applying fundamentalist labels to Mormonism (which is what you're doing) is that Mormonism is a moving target precisely because it posits continuing revelation. It's supposed to change. Nailing down the church of a particular time and insisting it is true Mormonism is to make the same mistake the Allreds of the world make.

The Community of Christ is in transformation now, and will probably drop the Book of Mormon and other Mormon related books down the road.

Another problematic statement, as you seem to believe you speak for the CofC.

They have accepted the Trinity and reject polytheism.

I thought you were some kind of Biblical literalist. Last I checked, there's no Trinity in the Bible, but plenty of polytheism.

There's the Brother Joseph group out by Big Water that I once visited - the women seemed rather like Stepford wives if you ask me - in plain clothes.

Your point being?

There are probably only 4,000,000 active Mormons, the rest being either ghost members who never go, or who have died, or possibly just left after becoming disenchanted and never bothered with the convoluted resignation process, etc., or babies counted before baptism.

I agree on the number. Not sure what the reasons for leaving have to do with anything.

The Utah Church is dwindling.

That is demonstrably not true. It's kind of an ex-Mormon wet dream, but the numbers don't support that belief.

I have to say I'm always fascinated that some anti-Mormons make me feel downright defensive of the LDS church. I'm fine with criticizing the church for what it is, what it teaches, and what it practices, but these fundamentalist attacks leave me quite cold.

[_Markk]

I have to say I'm always fascinated that some anti-Mormons make me feel downright defensive of the LDS church. I'm fine with criticizing the church for what it is, what it teaches, and what it practices, but these fundamentalist attacks leave me quite cold.

Hi John,

I hope you don't judge all Christians, or my faith, by Servant and others like her, there are jerks in every faith.

Mark

[_Quasimodo]

I have to say I'm always fascinated that some anti-Mormons make me feel downright defensive of the LDS church. I'm fine with criticizing the church for what it is, what it teaches, and what it practices, but these fundamentalist attacks leave me quite cold.

Hi John,

I hope you don't judge all Christians, or my faith, by Servant and others like her, there are jerks in every faith.

Mark

I can't speak for Runtu, but I do know that most religious people are very good people. It seems that the most vocal of religious people are like Servant, which is a shame.

I don't think that Servant realizes the damage she does to her own belief systems.

It's the same with Mormon apologists. When they go to battle, they lose the war.

[_Tobin]

In my opinion, an examination of Joseph Smith's lifestyle and his false prophecies precludes any possibility that Mormonism is anything but a fiction conjured up by a 19th century hoaxter.

I also don't believe in perfect people. You seem to have a lot of funny concepts running around in your head that you base your arguments on. Unfortunately for you, whether or not Mormonism has a basis in fact is not dependent on whether or not Joseph Smith was a perfect human-being. If Joseph Smith encountered God (in some form) and that is the basis for his claims, it simply doesn't follow that such an encounter would transform him into a perfect human.

[_Runtu]

Hi John,

I hope you don't judge all Christians, or my faith, by Servant and others like her, there are jerks in every faith.

Mark

No, not at all. As I said, I have a lot of Christian friends whom I respect and love. I can't imagine them being very supportive of Servant's attitudes.

[_Runtu]

I can't speak for Runtu, but I do know that most religious people are very good people. It seems that the most vocal of religious people are like Servant, which is a shame.

I don't think that Servant realizes the damage she does to her own belief systems.

It's the same with Mormon apologists. When they go to battle, they lose the war.

You actually spoke for me quite well. That's pretty much how I feel. It's the same way I feel about certain apologists for the LDS church who have no idea just how unappealing they make Mormonism appear.

[_Markk]

I can't speak for Runtu, but I do know that most religious people are very good people. It seems that the most vocal of religious people are like Servant, which is a shame.

I don't think that Servant realizes the damage she does to her own belief systems.

It's the same with Mormon apologists. When they go to battle, they lose the war.

We often think that folks of faith are perfect or somehow saints...when often we are the most messed up, at least as much as everyone else.

I remember hearing a pastor teaching, and joking to make a point he related that when he was growing up as a pastors kid, they had a coffee table that had a reversible spinning top. He and his brothers and sisters would be sitting around the table at night playing Parcheesi and when a member of the congregation would make a surprise visit, they would hurriedly flip the table top around...in which bibles would be glued to the other side...open. That was over twenty years ago but it kind of stuck with me.

It is our human nature to paint unrealistic expectations on folks of faith. And when we come off as a "pompous know it" all with a better than thou attitude, it is not very becoming, let alone a good witness.

A really cool set of verses in the Bible is Phil. 2:5-8. You might know it as the Kenosis, which means to empty. It is believed to be a early church hymn.

Paraphrasing, it says that if Christ, who was equal with God, could take on the form of a man and suffer and die for mankind, then we as Christians should use His, as a perfect example of humility.

thanks
MG