Servant says...

[_Always Changing]

Now you're just being nasty. I can't imagine why no one would want to take spiritual advice from someone who is so hung up on being "right" that she forgot how to be kind. Thankfully, Christianity is better than that, and so are most Christians.

I would rather associate with agnostics whose lifestyles fit the Christian ideal. I have real difficulties with those who call themselves Christians, and don't even try to move towards the Christian ideal. Part of it is a realization of the broader definition of sin-- humility and knowledge of their own imperfections.

She grew up in the south, and had been told so many times growing up that Catholics aren't Christians.... someone who belongs to one of the oldest Christian traditions that she is a Christian.

Example of yet another form of Stockholm syndrome.

coming out of the mouth of somebody ignorant as to Catholicism. Roman Catholics are as Christian as Baptist.

But that is the party line of the online group known as Carm.

build the Body of Christ is to put it in a suit of armor and not let anyone else in.

[_Runtu]

I'm sorry if I've been a little cranky, but this kind of stuff drives me crazy. There's nothing in the commandments or the teachings of Jesus about standing rigidly on dogma, and it makes me sad that people take the beautiful teachings of Jesus and use them to divide people one from another.

[Guest]

Look, it was Joseph Smith who claimed that your God said my faith is an abomination.

My God? Hardly. If nothing else, I think I agree with Joseph Smith that it is an abomination to get so fixated on "correct" doctrine that one forgets what it really means to be a Christian, as you seem to have done.

Most Christians totally reject Mormonism as being part of Christianity - and those that don't, either don't have a clue about what it teaches or are misinformed.

That has not been my experience at all. Dogmatic, fundamentalist Christians I know agree with that statement of yours, so obviously you're a dogmatic fundamentalist. You do not speak for Christianity at large, thankfully.

I have no problems with Mormons having the right to worship whomever or whatever they want.

How magnanimous of you.

I do have a problem with your "missionaries" marching around and deceiving people into believing that Mormons are the "true" Christians, and God abandoned the Church established by Jesus Christ.

I've met a lot of missionaries in my lifetime (we had them over last week), and they aren't marching around deceiving anyone. They are teaching people what they believe, and by and large, they do it with a lot more humility and kindness than you seem capable of. I don't believe what they're teaching, but it's not right to call them deceitful because they teach what they believe.

In other words, to put this clearly, Joseph Smith through down the gauntlet, and now Christians are defending the faith once delivered to the saints - and don't we have a right to do so?

Defend the faith once delivered to the Saints - Jude 3. What can I tell you guys? It is not LOVE to compromise biblical doctrine......and I for one don't patronize Mormons. It is LOVE to tell you the truth, however. If you want somebody to minimize the importance of Biblical doctrine, then I'm not the one you should be conversing with.

Seriously, do you want me to tell you it's okay to worship an exalted man from another planet who has become a god and now rules over planet earth? That's another gospel!

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Jesus Christ is the literal, physical offspring of polygamous deities dwelling on a planet near some star called Kolob, is not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity - and that His physical body was prepared when Elohim sexually procreated with Mary? That His brother is Lucifer? Really? Would you want me to overlook that?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that the Holy Ghost is another god and can only be at one place at one time?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Joseph Smith really met God who told Him that all the Christian Churches' creeds are an abomination and that all who profess those creeds are corrupt hypocrites - having hearts far from God?

Look, having "another gospel," as does Mormonism is very serious. I'm not going to give you some kind of "seeker friendly emergent church" type stuff - I'm just trying to share the truth with you and that's really the bottom line:


Gal. 1 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

As for me, I'd really like to see you all there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG0Fsa8at9E

[Guest]

There's nothing in the commandments or the teachings of Jesus about standing rigidly on dogma, and it makes me sad that people take the beautiful teachings of Jesus and use them to divide people one from another.

That's what organized religion does.

[_Servant]

I'm sorry if I've been a little cranky, but this kind of stuff drives me crazy. There's nothing in the commandments or the teachings of Jesus about standing rigidly on dogma, and it makes me sad that people take the beautiful teachings of Jesus and use them to divide people one from another.

We all get cranky, don't we?

[_SteelHead]

Oh noes! Those damnable Mormons are embellishing our mythology!

[_Servant]

Lucy, I totally disagree with CARM's position that Roman Catholicism is a cult. And trust me, I've gotten clobbered for holding that view. Now, I personally disagree with such things as the Fatima apparitions, the doctrine of Papal supremacy, and I believe in the Real Presence and not transubstantiation. But I also believe that the Roman Church holds to all the essentials of the faith, and as an Anglican, I can attend a Roman Mass and even know the responses.

[_Servant]

There's nothing in the commandments or the teachings of Jesus about standing rigidly on dogma, and it makes me sad that people take the beautiful teachings of Jesus and use them to divide people one from another.

That's what organized religion does.

Could you explain exactly what you mean by "organized," and why you think religion should be unorganized?

[_Runtu]

Defend the faith once delivered to the Saints - Jude 3. What can I tell you guys? It is not LOVE to compromise biblical doctrine......and I for one don't patronize Mormons. It is LOVE to tell you the truth, however. If you want somebody to minimize the importance of Biblical doctrine, then I'm not the one you should be conversing with.

But that's not what you're doing at all.

It's not love to insist that you know better what other people believe than they do. It's not love to insist you have the right to define "biblical doctrine" and draw lines between it and your cartoon version of Mormonism.

Seriously, do you want me to tell you it's okay to worship an exalted man from another planet who has become a god and now rules over planet earth? That's another gospel!

I couldn't care less what you think is OK to believe. What I am trying to get across to you is just how unpleasant, cranky, and un-Christian you are coming across. Being a stalwart Christian doesn't require you behave the way you are.

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Jesus Christ is the literal, physician offspring of polygamous deities dwelling on a planet near some star called Kolob, is not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity - and that His physical body was prepared when Elohim sexually procreated with Mary? That His brother is Lucifer? Really? Would you want me to overlook that?

Do you want me to believe that God has such a fragile ego that He will send people to endless torment because they didn't understand His nature the right way?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that the Holy Ghost is another god and can only be at one place at one time?

Do you think my wife is going to burn forever for having that possibly erroneous understanding? Is that the kind of God you believe in?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Joseph Smith really met God who told Him that all the Christian Churches' creeds are an abomination and that all who profess those creeds are corrupt hypocrites - having hearts far from God?

I'll just say that people whose hearts are close to God generally behave with humility and kindness. YMMV

Look, having "another gospel," as does Mormonism is very serious. I'm not going to give you some kind of "seeker friendly emergent church" type stuff - I'm just trying to share the truth with you and that's really the bottom line:


Gal. 1 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

What is the gospel? Is it having a correct understanding of the Trinity? Or is it something else entirely?

For my money, a "gospel" that seeks to condemn and divide is contrary to the gospel and what Paul is writing about.

As for me, I'd really that I'd like to see you all there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG0Fsa8at9E

If you want to see us there, why are you trying so hard to alienate everyone?

[_Servant]

It's ignorant to say that Catholics aren't Christian - and I can see that coming out of the mouth of somebody ignorant as to Catholicism. Roman Catholics are as Christian as Baptist.

The local Church of Christ where we lived in Texas used to sponsor "seminars" on various cults and Satanic religions. They called Mormonism a non-Christian cult, and they said the same about Catholicism. I don't think their pastor was ignorant about Catholicism. He was just a hateful bigot.

The Church of Christ is Campbellite, and many Christian evangelicals have serious issues with it. Campbellism was actually the forerunner of Mormonism. Sidney Rigdon was an apostate Baptist who hooked up with Campbellism and brought much of Campbellite ideology into the Mormon Church. Baptismal regeneration by proper authority, for instance is right out of the Campbellite handbook. Rigdon's beef with the Campbellites was that they were basically cessationists - or disavowed the charismata as still existing.

Alexander Campbell wrote a great critique of the Book of Mormon, however, and everybody who has an interest in Mormonism should read it: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

As for the Church of Christ saying that Catholicism isn't Christian, I'm sure they'd say the same about Anglicans. They pretty much exclude everybody from Christianity but themselves and related bodies.