Servant says...

[_Runtu]

The Church of Christ is Campbellite, and many Christian evangelicals have serious issues with it. Campbellism was actually the forerunner of Mormonism. Sidney Rigdon was an apostate Baptist who hooked up with Campbellism and brought much of Campbellite ideology into the Mormon Church. Baptismal regeneration by proper authority, for instance is right out of the Campbellite handbook. Rigdon's beef with the Campbellites was that they were basically cessationists - or disavowed the charismata as still existing.

The Church of Christ believes in the Trinity, so they'd be Christians in your estimation, right?

Alexander Campbell wrote a great critique of the Book of Mormon, however, and everybody who has an interest in Mormonism should read it: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

I'm well aware of that. My ancestors were members of Sidney Rigdon's Campbellite congregation in Kirtland before they joined the LDS church.

As for the Church of Christ saying that Catholicism isn't Christian, I'm sure they'd say the same about Anglicans. They pretty much exclude everybody from Christianity but themselves and related bodies.

In other words, the difference between them and you is that your definition of who is a Christian is a bit broader than theirs.

[_Servant]

Defend the faith once delivered to the Saints - Jude 3. What can I tell you guys? It is not LOVE to compromise biblical doctrine......and I for one don't patronize Mormons. It is LOVE to tell you the truth, however. If you want somebody to minimize the importance of Biblical doctrine, then I'm not the one you should be conversing with.

But that's not what you're doing at all.

It's not love to insist that you know better what other people believe than they do. It's not love to insist you have the right to define "biblical doctrine" and draw lines between it and your cartoon version of Mormonism.

Seriously, do you want me to tell you it's okay to worship an exalted man from another planet who has become a god and now rules over planet earth? That's another gospel!

I couldn't care less what you think is OK to believe. What I am trying to get across to you is just how unpleasant, cranky, and un-Christian you are coming across. Being a stalwart Christian doesn't require you behave the way you are.

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Jesus Christ is the literal, physician offspring of polygamous deities dwelling on a planet near some star called Kolob, is not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity - and that His physical body was prepared when Elohim sexually procreated with Mary? That His brother is Lucifer? Really? Would you want me to overlook that?

Do you want me to believe that God has such a fragile ego that He will send people to endless torment because they didn't understand His nature the right way?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that the Holy Ghost is another god and can only be at one place at one time?

Do you think my wife is going to burn forever for having that possibly erroneous understanding? Is that the kind of God you believe in?

Seriously, do you want me to tell you that Joseph Smith really met God who told Him that all the Christian Churches' creeds are an abomination and that all who profess those creeds are corrupt hypocrites - having hearts far from God?

I'll just say that people whose hearts are close to God generally behave with humility and kindness. YMMV

Look, having "another gospel," as does Mormonism is very serious. I'm not going to give you some kind of "seeker friendly emergent church" type stuff - I'm just trying to share the truth with you and that's really the bottom line:


Gal. 1 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

What is the gospel? Is it having a correct understanding of the Trinity? Or is it something else entirely?

For my money, a "gospel" that seeks to condemn and divide is contrary to the gospel and what Paul is writing about.

As for me, I'd really that I'd like to see you all there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG0Fsa8at9E

If you want to see us there, why are you trying so hard to alienate everyone?

Hey, when you tell the truth you are always going to alienate people. I am not the "seeker friendly, emergent church, Rick Warren in drag" type. What would you prefer, somebody that tells you the truth, or somebody that doesn't? How do you think Christians feel when they are confronted by Mormons who tell them that Jesus has abandoned the Church He established and has replaced it with something called "Mormonism" founded by a 19th century occultist who said polygamy was the new and everlasting covenant? Come on - sorry inclusiveness doesn't include biblical doctrine. I live in a heavily populated Mormon area, and have Mormon friends (one even calls me with questions on the Bible) - and I get along fine on a social level. But, I tell my Mormon friends the truth if we get into theological issues. It's as simple as that.

[Guest]

The Church of Christ is Campbellite, and many Christian evangelicals have serious issues with it.

Therein lies the hypocrisy of Evangelicalism. Deny other Christians to right to claim they are Christians, yet on the other hand preach the notion that all Christians are of the body of Christ so long as they believe in the Trinity.

Evangelicals attempted, in the 19th Century, to pass an amendment to the U.S. Constitution which made the U.S. a Christian nation but outlawed the Catholic Church. Evangelicals got themselves federal sinecures to come to Utah to jail polygamists, confiscate Church property and administer test oaths to Mormons, while Catholics and Jews in Congress protested.

I tried to gain admission to Fuller Theological Seminary for a doctorate in religious history, but was told that it would not accept an ecclesiastical endorsement from a Mormon bishop, nor would it be likely it would admit a Mormon to the program.

The Church of Christ is Pepperdine University, by the way, an acceptable organization.

Alexander Campbell wrote a great critique of the Book of Mormon, however, and everybody who has an interest in Mormonism should read it: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

Today it is just thin tripe.

[_Servant]

The Church of Christ is Campbellite, and many Christian evangelicals have serious issues with it. Campbellism was actually the forerunner of Mormonism. Sidney Rigdon was an apostate Baptist who hooked up with Campbellism and brought much of Campbellite ideology into the Mormon Church. Baptismal regeneration by proper authority, for instance is right out of the Campbellite handbook. Rigdon's beef with the Campbellites was that they were basically cessationists - or disavowed the charismata as still existing.

The Church of Christ believes in the Trinity, so they'd be Christians in your estimation, right?

Alexander Campbell wrote a great critique of the Book of Mormon, however, and everybody who has an interest in Mormonism should read it: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

I'm well aware of that. My ancestors were members of Sidney Rigdon's Campbellite congregation in Kirtland before they joined the LDS church.

As for the Church of Christ saying that Catholicism isn't Christian, I'm sure they'd say the same about Anglicans. They pretty much exclude everybody from Christianity but themselves and related bodies.

In other words, the difference between them and you is that your definition of who is a Christian is a bit broader than theirs.

I accept the Church of Christ as being Christian, but as having some heterodox problems. The same with the Seventh-day Adventists. The only groups I reject as being Christian are those who:

1. Say they are the restoration of Christianity - Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

2. Deny the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God.

3. Deny that the Bible contains all things necessary for salvation.

4. Reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ -Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

[_Runtu]

Hey, when you tell the truth you are always going to alienate people. I am not the "seeker friendly, emergent church, Rick Warren in drag" type. What would you prefer, somebody that tells you the truth, or somebody that doesn't?

I'd prefer someone who acknowledges that she doesn't know any better than the rest of us do. Go ahead and tell me what you believe, and I'll always listen. Hell, I've even had the JWs in my house once or twice.

What the problem is here, I think, is that you are mistaking your dogmatism for truth. Most Christians I know would disagree with quite a bit of what you say, but you tell me it's just the truth. No, it's your interpretation of scripture. It doesn't really matter how many people or different religions agree with you or not.

How do you think Christians feel when they are confronted by Mormons who tell them that Jesus has abandoned the Church He established and has replaced it with something called "Mormonism" founded by a 19th century occultist who said polygamy was the new and everlasting covenant?

I doubt that message is very attractive to most mainstream Christians, which would explain why the missionaries don't tend to lead with that. Apparently they've learned something you haven't about making their message attractive to nonbelievers.

Come on - sorry inclusiveness doesn't include biblical doctrine.

Again, who made you the arbiter of biblical doctrine? How do you know your extra-Biblical doctrine of the Trinity is the correct understanding of God?

I live in a heavily populated Mormon area, and have Mormon friends (one even calls me with questions on the Bible) - and I get along fine on a social level. But, I tell my Mormon friends the truth if we get into theological issues. It's as simple as that.

What's simple is that some people don't know the difference between dogmatism and truth.

[_Runtu]

I accept the Church of Christ as being Christian, but as having some heterodox problems. The same with the Seventh-day Adventists. The only groups I reject as being Christian are those who:

1. Say they are the restoration of Christianity - Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

2. Deny the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God.

3. Deny that the Bible contains all things necessary for salvation.

4. Reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ -Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

So, let me ask you again: Is my wife going to hell because she understands God through the LDS doctrine of Godhead? Are her prayers ignored? Does her deep and abiding faith in the Savior and His Atonement count for nothing because she believes in the "wrong" Jesus?

That seems to be what you're suggesting, as only "true Christians" are ever saved, right?

[_Ceeboo]

Note to self:

If you ever meet someone interested in Christianity, DO NOT, under any circumstance, tell them about this thread!

Ever!



Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Servant]

The Church of Christ is Campbellite, and many Christian evangelicals have serious issues with it. Campbellism was actually the forerunner of Mormonism. Sidney Rigdon was an apostate Baptist who hooked up with Campbellism and brought much of Campbellite ideology into the Mormon Church. Baptismal regeneration by proper authority, for instance is right out of the Campbellite handbook. Rigdon's beef with the Campbellites was that they were basically cessationists - or disavowed the charismata as still existing.

The Church of Christ believes in the Trinity, so they'd be Christians in your estimation, right?

Alexander Campbell wrote a great critique of the Book of Mormon, however, and everybody who has an interest in Mormonism should read it: http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

I'm well aware of that. My ancestors were members of Sidney Rigdon's Campbellite congregation in Kirtland before they joined the LDS church.

As for the Church of Christ saying that Catholicism isn't Christian, I'm sure they'd say the same about Anglicans. They pretty much exclude everybody from Christianity but themselves and related bodies.

In other words, the difference between them and you is that your definition of who is a Christian is a bit broader than theirs.

Interesting that your family was part of Rigdon's congregation in Kirtland. They've been in the Church then for a very long time. And no, I don't think your wife is going to burn in hell! I'm not God and I don't consign people to hell. I believe this however:

John 10 (New International Version)

10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

[_Runtu]

Note to self:

If you ever meet someone interested in Christianity, DO NOT, under any circumstance, tell them about this thread!

Ever!



Peace,
Ceeboo

Tell me about it. I feel like I need to reconnect with some Christian friends just to remind myself that it really is better than this. :(

[_Servant]

I accept the Church of Christ as being Christian, but as having some heterodox problems. The same with the Seventh-day Adventists. The only groups I reject as being Christian are those who:

1. Say they are the restoration of Christianity - Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

2. Deny the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God.

3. Deny that the Bible contains all things necessary for salvation.

4. Reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ -Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification, etc.

So, let me ask you again: Is my wife going to hell because she understands God through the LDS doctrine of Godhead? Are her prayers ignored? Does her deep and abiding faith in the Savior and His Atonement count for nothing because she believes in the "wrong" Jesus?

That seems to be what you're suggesting, as only "true Christians" are ever saved, right?

The only people who go to Hell are those who reject the Gospel. God sends no person to Hell, they send themselves. I believe there are some people in the Mormon Church who are Christians, and who for various reasons find themselves in the LDS, but who love God. You see, all who God calls, will come to Jesus. It's not our place to tell anybody if they are a sheep - God alone knows His sheep, and they follow Jesus' voice, and a stranger they do not follow.