The Church Leadership created this mess

[_readtoomuch]

Today I read that the Church has issued letters of disciplinary action to the leader of the groups "Ordain Women" and "Mormon Stories". To the average member of the church, this will not even hit the radar screen. However, to the members of the church who actually read and then even worse, think about what they read, this is extremely disappointing information. Yet at the same time, not surprising at all. The Church has once again made it loud and clear "You are not allowed to think or try to promote social change in the church". As a 4th generation Mormon and having grown up in the Church, I am saddened to hear that once again the Mormon Church is flexing its muscles and not facing the real problem..."arrogant denial".

The church seems unwilling to accept responsibility for the current state of affairs in the church. The problem isn't the internet, but rather it is that the people of this church can within seconds, reach out to thousands of other members and expose problems or untruths promoted by the church. You see, the church has fostered an environment of doubt and questioning through their own actions and words. They, the leaders, through their misrepresentation of the facts, changing doctrine and out and out lies, has fostered a situation in the church that creates doubt. The internet just means that more people know about their actions sooner. In other words, in a very big way, the cats out of the bag.

So you doubt my position? Well let me illustrate the basis for my words. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

1. Joseph Smith went to his grave denying that he was teaching or living polygamy. Yet today the church in the LDS.org website, admit to the world he was a polygamist. What does this mean? He lied his entire life about his involvement with polygamy. So what does that mean? The church has destroyed his credibility which leads the average person to ask "what else did he lie about?" For example...Multiple versions of the first vision. How about the 5 year silence about the restoration of the priesthood? Or, how about how did Joseph come up with the endowment? Masons??? hummm? Zelph??, Ancient Nephite alter at Adam-Ondi-Ahman?? Two months after he became a mason, he miraculously received the endowment. How many people in the church know that the Illinois Masonic leadership accused Joseph Smith of stealing their ceremony and calling it his own??

2. Joseph Smith told the world that he received the Word of Wisdom straight from God himself. Yet, he drank his entire life and saw no hypocrisy in his selling alcohol to others. Not many people in the church know this. Or that he had wine brought to the Carthage Jail in order to liven up the situation. Brigham Young was one of the largest whiskey manufacturers in the west. Its ok to sell it for money but don't drink it.

3. Wilford Woodruff told the world that God told him he wanted the church to stop practicing polygamy and the church passed the rule officially in the 1890 October General Conference. This would have been good except that the church lied about its intentions and continued to do it for another 14 years. How many members know who Reed Smoot was?? Not many I would say. How do I know this? I read it in the LDS website LDS.org. I find it hard to believe God told him to stop when he kept doing it. Or, perhaps, God forbid, he just made it up to sound more believable?

4. In 1981, I received my own endowments just before I left on my mission. I was confused and bewildered by the process but accepted it because it was of ancient origin and brought back to the earth through revelation by Joseph Smith. Yet, starting in 1990 and then at least two more times during my life up to now, the church has changed the endowment without even saying the Lord told them to do it. So if the endowment can change, then what else can be changed??

5. I could go on and on but I will end this by mentioning that this year, the church threw the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham under the bus in the Blacks and the Priesthood essay. If you don't believe me, just go read yourself. In one essay, the church threw over 100 years of Church leadership talks on the doctrine of the blacks and the priesthood. In 1978, the church didn't reject the doctrine of the refusal of granting the priesthood to the blacks. But in 2014, they officially rejected the basis for which it was implemented. Who can blame anyone for wondering what is real and what is not real?? The church tells us today it was based on theories and not actual revelation.

I would submit to everyone that reads my words that it is the church and its leaders that must face the proverbial court action. It is the leaders of the church that: 1. created the reasons for the doubt by not telling the truth. 2. It is a direct results of deception and half truths that has led to having members wonder what is going on. So they can go now and chop off the messengers that are helping people to see the light. What will that do in today's world? It will lead to a larger exodus from the church. The church recently put out a essay for the youth speaking about faith and doubt. They stated that doubt and faith cannot remain on the same stage because one will kill the other. This is categorical nonsense. God created by intent, to leave us with no memory of him or where we came from. By definition, this creates doubt. Because we have doubt, we can choose to have faith. We will have faith until we have knowledge. Knowledge trumps faith and doubt. This is the nonsense the church is trying to push out on the young membership of the church. In a sense, they are making the possession of doubt a sin. I hope that the leadership of this church wakes up to the reality of their situation. Instead of great stories and lessons on gospel principals during General Conference, perhaps someone should talk about why we shouldn't be bothered that men today, in our temples, can be sealed to more than one woman; but women cannot be sealed to more than one man at any given time. Or, perhaps a talk about why we shouldn't be bothered by Joseph Smith's marriages to other married women who were already sealed to other active men in the church.

However, don't hold your breath on this happening in the near future.

[_Tobin]

readtoomuch,

I fail to see what your "issues" have to do with the disciplinary action the LDS Church has decided to take against some of its members. The LDS Church has every right to discipline and remove members for any reason it wishes to.

Now it sounds to me like you've left the Church. If not and if these "issues" are really a problem for you, I would suggest you leave the LDS Church immediately. You clearly aren't able to deal with them or come to a satisfactory resolution to these superficial problems. Though I personally think they are much ado about absolutely nothing.

Tobin

[_aznative]

You are a true troll.

[_Tobin]

You are a true troll.

And you are a liar. You supposedly left and weren't going to post here any longer.

[_aznative]

You are a true troll.

And you are a liar. You supposedly left and weren't going to post here any longer.

Yeah. That lasted a whole minute.

Regardless, you are a troll, aren't you? Seriously, you can tell me the truth.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

[_ldsfaqs]

Today I read that the Church has issued letters of disciplinary action to the leader of the groups "Ordain Women" and "Mormon Stories". To the average member of the church, this will not even hit the radar screen. However, to the members of the church who actually read and then even worse, think about what they read, this is extremely disappointing information. Yet at the same time, not surprising at all. The Church has once again made it loud and clear "You are not allowed to think or try to promote social change in the church". As a 4th generation Mormon and having grown up in the Church, I am saddened to hear that once again the Mormon Church is flexing its muscles and not facing the real problem..."arrogant denial".

I'm not "saddened" at all..... They should have had council's long before now. Of course, that's because I'm read, and follow these things and kinds of people. The average Bishop and member is busy with life and family.

The church absolute encorages "thinking"..... But yes, it doesn't allow "social change", because after all, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a "democracy", it's a Republic, like this country is. There is the Gospel, and the membership of the Church sustains it several times a year. If you don't like it, create YOUR OWN RELIGION.... which is not of God. Many have, enjoy YOUR "arrogant denial". Fool thinking you should speak for God.

The church seems unwilling to accept responsibility for the current state of affairs in the church. The problem isn't the internet, but rather it is that the people of this church can within seconds, reach out to thousands of other members and expose problems or untruths promoted by the church. You see, the church has fostered an environment of doubt and questioning through their own actions and words. They, the leaders, through their misrepresentation of the facts, changing doctrine and out and out lies, has fostered a situation in the church that creates doubt. The internet just means that more people know about their actions sooner. In other words, in a very big way, the cats out of the bag.

Nope.... it is the anti-mormon who misrepresents the facts, changes doctrines, and out and out lies about everything. I know, I've been an anti-mormon. People can just as easily read LDS scholarship and find out the whole truth, the truth and facts the anti's omit to promote their lies.

So you doubt my position? Well let me illustrate the basis for my words. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Ya, but being a rocket scientist "might" help you, because you're off in lying neverland.

1. Joseph Smith went to his grave denying that he was teaching or living polygamy. Yet today the church in the LDS.org website, admit to the world he was a polygamist. What does this mean? He lied his entire life about his involvement with polygamy. So what does that mean? The church has destroyed his credibility which leads the average person to ask "what else did he lie about?" For example...Multiple versions of the first vision. How about the 5 year silence about the restoration of the priesthood? Or, how about how did Joseph come up with the endowment? Masons??? hummm? Zelph??, Ancient Nephite alter at Adam-Ondi-Ahman?? Two months after he became a mason, he miraculously received the endowment. How many people in the church know that the Illinois Masonic leadership accused Joseph Smith of stealing their ceremony and calling it his own??

Joseph Smith didn't practice "polygamy"..... There is ZERO evidence that he did. Thus he DID NOT LIE, as anti's claim.
He DID practice the "Sealing Ordinance". But that's not actually polygamy weirdo. Polygamy is LIVING with more than one wife. Joseph had only ONE official wife. Even Emma to "her grave" denied Joseph practiced Polygamy..... Are you calling her a liar also?

Blah blah blah..... All your other charges have more truth and facts to them which debunk your negative view of them.

2. Joseph Smith told the world that he received the Word of Wisdom straight from God himself. Yet, he drank his entire life and saw no hypocrisy in his selling alcohol to others. Not many people in the church know this. Or that he had wine brought to the Carthage Jail in order to liven up the situation. Brigham Young was one of the largest whiskey manufacturers in the west. Its ok to sell it for money but don't drink it.

The Word of Wisdom was a Word of Wisdom, not a commandment until the 1900's. Get over yourself. I have a room-mate who drinks. It's not the end of the world. It is simply WISDOM not to, and today for those under covenant, we are commanded not to.

3. Wilford Woodruff told the world that God told him he wanted the church to stop practicing polygamy and the church passed the rule officially in the 1890 October General Conference. This would have been good except that the church lied about its intentions and continued to do it for another 14 years. How many members know who Reed Smoot was?? Not many I would say. How do I know this? I read it in the LDS website LDS.org. I find it hard to believe God told him to stop when he kept doing it. Or, perhaps, God forbid, he just made it up to sound more believable?

So, you believe the Church should have "broken up" family's, and also broke covenants already given? Poor you. Get over yourself again.

4. In 1981, I received my own endowments just before I left on my mission. I was confused and bewildered by the process but accepted it because it was of ancient origin and brought back to the earth through revelation by Joseph Smith. Yet, starting in 1990 and then at least two more times during my life up to now, the church has changed the endowment without even saying the Lord told them to do it. So if the endowment can change, then what else can be changed??

Idiot..... Only TWO things have "changed" in the Church and that is the Priesthood and Polygamy, BOTH of which historically have changed MANY TIMES, given and taken away according to God's will. The "Endowment" is symbolism of Eternal Teachings and Covenants. It itself is not and never has been Eternal Teachings and covenants. No teaching and covenant has changed in the Endowment. It is a tool, and tools adapt and change all the time. The CONCEPTS do not and have not changed.

5. I could go on and on but I will end this by mentioning that this year, the church threw the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham under the bus in the Blacks and the Priesthood essay. If you don't believe me, just go read yourself. In one essay, the church threw over 100 years of Church leadership talks on the doctrine of the blacks and the priesthood. In 1978, the church didn't reject the doctrine of the refusal of granting the priesthood to the blacks. But in 2014, they officially rejected the basis for which it was implemented. Who can blame anyone for wondering what is real and what is not real?? The church tells us today it was based on theories and not actual revelation.

Just because you don't actually know the difference between doctrine, practice and personal views, doesn't mean the rest of us don't.
Nothing in those books have been thrown under the bus. You are simply ignorant of the books AND the priesthood issue. I should know, I primarily left the Church for this issue, thus I'm an expert in it, and didn't come back to the Church until it and a thing or two otherwise was resolved through further learning.

Let me give you a taste......

"Blacks" were not denied the Priesthood, only those of African Lineage were, including whites. Black me of the Island, India, parts of Central/South America etc. WERE given the Priesthood. These people many were just as black as any African black. It was an interpretation of scripture. That was the ONLY policy. All other views related were "opinions", never official doctrine. The Church doesn't know and never did know the actual reason for the ban. It could be the interpretation, or otherwise. But the 1978 Revelation ended the issue. All, no matter race OR color are allowed the Priesthood. God spoke, that was his will. And it's not an accident that it happened RIGHT when racism primarily in this country though some in the world toward the black African ended. It was the Racism of the world that created the ban, not racism by the Church. Open your mind and learn more.

I would submit to everyone that reads my words that it is the church and its leaders that must face the proverbial court action. It is the leaders of the church that: 1. created the reasons for the doubt by not telling the truth. 2. It is a direct results of deception and half truths that has led to having members wonder what is going on. So they can go now and chop off the messengers that are helping people to see the light. What will that do in today's world? It will lead to a larger exodus from the church. The church recently put out a essay for the youth speaking about faith and doubt. They stated that doubt and faith cannot remain on the same stage because one will kill the other. This is categorical nonsense. God created by intent, to leave us with no memory of him or where we came from. By definition, this creates doubt. Because we have doubt, we can choose to have faith. We will have faith until we have knowledge. Knowledge trumps faith and doubt. This is the nonsense the church is trying to push out on the young membership of the church. In a sense, they are making the possession of doubt a sin. I hope that the leadership of this church wakes up to the reality of their situation. Instead of great stories and lessons on gospel principals during General Conference, perhaps someone should talk about why we shouldn't be bothered that men today, in our temples, can be sealed to more than one woman; but women cannot be sealed to more than one man at any given time. Or, perhaps a talk about why we shouldn't be bothered by Joseph Smith's marriages to other married women who were already sealed to other active men in the church.
However, don't hold your breath on this happening in the near future.

Nope.... Ignorant liars like you are the ONLY people who cause problems for the Church...... The church is led by good and righteous people.
They are BETTER THAN YOU.... so, get over yourself.

[_readtoomuch]

Its amazing to me that you read my words and think you know who I am and what I understand. In a blog like this, you surely know it is impossible for someone to make a comment and yet at the same time fully and completely express enough words to totally and fully reveal one's full understanding of any given subject. You arrogantly and with great disrespect express your opinion about me personally but in reality you have no idea who you are speaking to.

This is a big reflection of your shallowness.

I stand by what I said. Your comments are very revealing as it pertains to your blindness. Any person with a brain and the ability to read the writings of the Church, will eventually reach the view point I have expressed. By the way, I have not called Joseph Smith a Polygamist. The Church did. Brigham Young did. Many other leaders did. Its amazing to me you could be so blind. If Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, then why all the commotion over the Expositor being published? William Law was at one point the 2nd Councilor in the First Presidency. He would have known. If Joseph wasn't practicing it, why does the church in LDS.org say he was???

You speak so boldly, but your words reveal your lack of knowledge, blindness and lack of social graces.

[_ludwigm]

...your words reveal your lack of knowledge, blindness and lack of social graces.

At least he is a likeable and courteous character !

[_Bazooka]

People can just as easily read LDS scholarship and find out the whole truth, the truth and facts the anti's omit to promote their lies.

Can you show me an official publication of the Church that discusses openly and honestly the whole truth about polygamy and polyandry as practiced during the Joseph Smith presidency?