Bazooka wrote:Is it possible that John has shown a willingness to bend that Kate did not?
absolutely-ish. bend, yes. be a chameleon for both audiences, absolutely. he is not in these cross hairs for not bending, he is more likely in the cross hairs for betraying jeff holland.
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
Has he been asked to take down his website? Discontinue his podcast? Stop teaching that it's okay to be a non-traditional believer?
KK was given 3 options. Was this type of procedure taken with John?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Craig Paxton wrote:I don't see any other outcome...the church can not afford to Excommunicate Kate Kelly and allow John Dehlin to walk away a free man, escaping church discipline. The cards have been dealt, the fix is in, the death-star has been repositioned, the soldiers will carry out their orders...we're merely waiting for the fat lady to finish singing.
Sorry John...but I don't see you escaping the inevitable. You are part of a purge...You are part of the message being sent to the entire church membership...and that message can't be sent with out an exclamation on the end of that message...unfortunately, you are the exclamation point !
You may be right and I've thought the same thing. John may get exed cuz they've already pulled the trigger with Kate and he's been being watched for a long time. There are plenty of people that would l've to see him gone.
That said he does have some friends in high places— or did at one time. AlsoJohn D's case however does seem a little different. I think it is less clear that he wants specific changes from the hierarchy and if he does what those would be.
I was pretty sure that KK was going to be exed. It's less clear to me in Dehlin's case.
Crawling around the evidence in order to maintain a testimony of the Book of Mormon.
Tim the Enchanter wrote:You raise a good point about the church not wanting to ramp up more negative media attention if it's dying down, but they braved the bad press for Kate Kelly and if they see John Dehlin as too much of a negative I think they would be willing to brave the bad press again.
yours is a better point. and probably the strongest point so far. i am probably wrong in my prediction that they will let dehlin just carry on as a fence-straddling Mormon and their success in the pr campaign against kelly's campaign could be a big part of that.
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
just me wrote:Has he been asked to take down his website? Discontinue his podcast? Stop teaching that it's okay to be a non-traditional believer?
KK was given 3 options. Was this type of procedure taken with John?
not at all. not ever.
i think holland was hoping he would turn the thing around and be a modern day alma the younger.
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
It's interesting that Kate was excommunicated for just advocating a change in policy. The church has no established doctrine against women being ordained to the priesthood. They just don't like a women speaking up about an obvious injustice. Especially since she has a following. The danger is the leaders are still living in the past and don't understand how this tactic may not work as it has in the past. Feminists have always been viewed as a great evil to the church's authority. The church has always been on the wrong side of history, and I see nothing that will change this anytime soon.
John's situation is interesting in that it is about whether the church can tolerate members having and expressing less literal beliefs in church truth claims. It appears they are still having some trouble with this. In both cases they want members to be silent.
Bazooka wrote:Is it possible that John has shown a willingness to bend that Kate did not?
Even if he takes down whatever episodes the church demands, that's a joke right? I mean, is the church going to let him play them like that forever? Would he quit Mormon Stories altogether if they church demanded it? I tend to doubt it. I like John Dehlin, but if I was in church leadership I would not like him at all. I would have the perspective that his game was to keep pushing the envelope as far as possible and then retract as little as possible when he gets in hot water. The church leaders have to see this pattern. Are they willing to put up with that for the long haul? Maybe they are.
The excommunication of a Mormon feminist has a progressive podcast host worried that he could face the same fate next week.
John Dehlin is scheduled to meet with a church leader, known as a stake president, on Sunday to discuss allegations of apostasy.
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The doctoral student, who tackles issues like gay rights in his popular "Mormon Stories" podcast, said he's faced such scrutiny in the past without being drummed out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
But after an all-male panel excommunicated gender-equality activist Kate Kelly on Monday, Dehlin fears a line is being drawn in the Utah sand.
"It feels like the church is wanting to clamp down," Dehlin told NBC News on Tuesday.
I think the question John can rightly ask is "I've been doing this for a long time, why am I now being disciplined when you've blatantly accepted this behaviour from me?"
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Tim the Enchanter wrote: I don't understand how Kate Kelly could be considered a greater threat than John Dehlin. He has, I believe, a much larger following than she does. .
i disagree. i do not think he has nearly as large of a following as kate. he was on her bandwagon, not the other way around. his following may be more sychophant than hers, but it is absolutely not larger. not among exmos, not among Mormons, and not among the press, and not among the leaders of the church.
I'm not so sure. John Dehlin had a bandwagon long before Kate Kelly was on the scene. I think she is easier for the media to cover though and that makes a difference for sure.
Is there any way to quantify their audience?
Here is a website comparison of the last 6 months.
Since the last general conference, the respective website traffic seems about the same, but over the entire 6 months, traffic on mormonstories.org has been more consistent.
