Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

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_Kishkumen
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Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Kishkumen »

My thanks go to board friend and fan Daniel Peterson for keeping track of the fallout from Kate Kelly's excommunication. He has linked two pieces on his "Sic et Non" blog that are noteworthy for their bile and bad thinking. I bring them to your attention to highlight the kind of material LDS folk would do well to avoid like the plague, if they truly want to follow the example of Christ and reach out to those who stray.

I will dispense with the worst first. One Mark Paredes has authored a piece for the "Jewish Journal", entitled, "Why was a Mormon feminist excommunicated?" I regret the fact that Mark Paredes has undertaken to represent the LDS community to the Jewish community on this matter because, frankly, he does a shamefully poor job of it.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/jews_and_mormons/item/why_was_a_mormon_feminist_excommunicated

This Mormon ambassador to the Jewish community (Mark is a member of the Jewish Relations Committee of the LDS Church's Southern California Public Affairs Council) tells his Jewish reader right out of the gate that he is well qualified to suggest who should be ejected from the Jewish community, were they wise like Mormons and still excommunicating people.

Excommunication is no longer a Jewish practice, though I could certainly come up with a few candidates if it were ever restored.


The irony here is that he is writing the piece because:

[T]wo Jewish women sent me emails asking how Mormons could justify his action.


Maybe they are among his candidates for future excommunications from the Jewish community?

You probably noticed that what prompted Mark's triumphalist article on the excommunication of Kate Kelly was the outrage of some Jewish women at the thought of the same event. So, Mark's reaction to this is to write diplomatically to the Jewish community about how they might want to bring back the practice of excommunication.

Then Mark shows exactly how much compassion Mormons exercise toward lost members of the community with the following comment:

I wanted to explain to my Jewish readers why most Mormons aren’t losing sleep over this.


Indeed. The excommunication of a believing LDS woman is nothing to "lose sleep over", evidently, if you are Mark Paredes or among the Mormons he knows.

No doubt, too, that Mark's Jewish readers shared his outrage and justification when they read about what got Kelly tossed from the fold of Christ:

On two occasions she got hundreds of people to show up on Temple Square in Salt Lake City during General Conference, the semiannual gathering of Mormons from around the world, to request complimentary tickets to the men-only priesthood sessions.


"Requesting complimentary tickets" is an affront not to be tolerated. I am sure Mark's Jewish readers were won over by this explanation.

Mark tells us that he has some "beefs" with Kelly. I will share some of the more sadly humorous examples.

Mark assures us that Kelly was:

peddling a solution to a “problem” that doesn’t exist. Anyone who thinks that women’s voices aren’t heard and valued by LDS leaders has never been a bishop. Every Sunday I conduct a 90-minute leadership meeting (ward council) which several women leaders attend. I actively seek their advice and counsel, which they are very willing to give, and rely heavily on them to help me and my assistants to strengthen families in our congregation.


Here's the thing about problems, Mark. Problems are subjective. As you noted earlier:

Kate’s beliefs about women and the priesthood are not unique, and she is hardly the first LDS woman to share them with others. I’m fairly positive that there are Mormon women in most if not all wards (large congregations) in the country who hold similar views.


So, in spite of your openness in allowing women to attend leadership meetings, where you seek their advice and counsel, some women still perceive a problem. My guess is that some of them are in your ward. Perhaps it is because they know a bigoted bishopric member with a mediocre IQ who by virtue of his biological gender gets to tell them what to do, while they are only able to give advice.

Here is another of Mark's "beefs":

My final beef with Kate was that her goal was ultimately self-promotion, not gender equality. As if further proof were needed, she chose to attend a public vigil in her honor in Utah on the day that her disciplinary council was held in Virginia in her absence. Although Kate was invited to participate in the council via Skype, she preferred to whine in public and hide behind her blog instead of defending her beliefs in person to church leaders. I’m glad to see that this intellectual cowardice was not rewarded.


So, you see, although Kate's stake president went out of his way to prevent her from facing a disciplinary council in her new home state of Utah (he petitioned the First Presidency to freeze her records), when he knew she was moving out of state and it would be financially burdensome to return to Virginia, Kate is obviously in the wrong for not attending electronically when she had the opportunity to do so. Furthermore, Mark conveniently forgets to mention that Kate had provided a letter to present her defense to the council.

Now, lest we doubt Mark's milk of human kindness runneth over its capacious cup, he ends on this positive note:

I do hope that Kate finds more productive ways to spend her time. I also hope that she eventually decides to come back to the church without preconditions. Until that time, relatively few Mormons will lament the exit of an apostate from our ranks.


You go, Mark.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Sammy Jankins
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

I enjoyed your commentary Kiskumen. It's like the author of this piece completely forgot who his audience was.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Kishkumen »

The next piece, by the aspiring Ann Coulter of Mopologetics, Cassandra Hedelius, is either slick but logically inept or just plain deceptive.

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2014/06/26/faith-community-excommunication-kelly/

Cassandra is to be credited for avoiding the Schadenfreude of Mark Paredes. She opens by offering her love to Kate Kelly:

To begin with, we offer our love to Sister Kelly. It is a hard, and sad, and sobering thing to lose a member of the church. The power of fellowship and universal opportunity to serve is central to the experience of being Mormon, and the loss of one is a loss to all.


She then starts into her apologetic by assuring us that the LDS Church is hardly unique in practicing excommunication. This is where things start to go awry:

Excommunication is not an extreme practice or unique to the LDS church; most Christian denominations and some non-Christian traditions have long-standing provisions for formalizing a discordant relationship between an individual and the church. Throughout Christian history, the aim of excommunication has been not to punish or cause pointless suffering, but to spur reconciliation.

Catholicism has lately suffered its own turmoil over the propriety of excommunication; Pope Francis recently reaffirmed that individuals who encourage abortion and euthanasia should not receive communion, despite ongoing criticism from some Catholics as well as some non-Catholics.


Yes, most Christian denominations do have "provisions for formalizing discordant relationship[s]." The difference is that an increasing number of them, including the Catholic Church to which Cassandra refers, refrain from ending the membership of the person and all of the divine blessings that go along with it. Excommunication in Catholicism means to withhold communion from the excommunicant--a far less severe penalty than LDS excommunication.

Next Cassandra undertakes to educate everyone on the meaning of apostasy, as though that were the thing that Kate Kelly had been excommunicated for. Yes, Kelly was originally charged with apostasy, and it was for this charge that the disciplinary council was convened. The result of that council, however, was that Kate Kelly was excommunicated for "conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church."

Now we can perhaps forgive Cassandra for her apparent error in persisting to believe that Kelly was excommunicated for apostasy because no one really has the slightest clue exactly what "conduct contrary to the laws and order of the church" is beyond its applicability here to some of Kate Kelly's actions. Still, Cassandra would do well to edit her piece for accuracy, or, rather, take it down since much of it consists of her opinion regarding the definition of apostasy.

I want to address one piece of Cassandra's opinion, nonetheless:

Religious language like “apostasy” is very loaded in our culture; it can bring to mind caricatures of pitchforks, torches, and witch-burnings. Most Mormons don’t see it that way in this case; apostasy would be better expressed as breaking faith with the community of members.


Now, I am not sure where she is getting her image of apostasy. Is she thinking of the Inquisition perhaps? She would be better served just to come out and say so. These days most people think of Monty Python's Holy Grail when they hear the term witch-burning. I don't think they have apostasy on their minds.

On the other hand, I think she unwittingly reveals the kind of horror that does, in fact, occupy the minds of LDS folk when they hear the word "apostasy." "Breaking the faith with the community of members" is the mildest possible way of putting it; "deceived by Satan and mortally dangerous to the salvation of others" is much closer to the reality.

Cassandra knows this, as she is well familiar with, and a fan of, the oeuvre of her senior Mopologist Greg Smith (whose thoroughly dishonest work on Dehlin she links in this article), who accused Laura Compton of being exactly that: deceived by Satan and mortally dangerous to the salvation of others.

Of the many cardinal sins of Kate Kelly, one that especially troubles Cassandra is the allegation, which she leaves unstated in everything but intimation and hyperlinks, that Kelly allied herself with John Dehlin:

Sister Kelly has allied herself with others who have made blatantly untrue, flawed, and biased accusations against the church under the guise of benign “questioning.” She is part of a movement that may offer commiseration to struggling members but also feeds a false narrative that the church and its leaders’ actions can best be understood through the lens of cynical politics, and that God does not guide the church, if indeed He exists.


Why so coy, Cassandra? Is it that your real intention is to, contrary to the findings of the disciplinary council executed by her priesthood leaders, call Kate Kelly an apostate both directly and by association with John Dehlin, but you are not confident enough to be bold about it?

Now, Cassandra, you wouldn't be seeking to re-adjudicate the matter of Kate Kelly's excommunication in opposition to the judgment of the male priesthood leaders who already decided the matter, would you? I thought you left that kind of "apostasy" to Kate Kelly and her co-conspirators! Apostasy is such an unpleasant word, Cassandra.

As a final note, I am interested to know whether Cassandra's rhetorical sleight-of-hand and misrepresentations are shared by others at FAIR or if she is merely indulging in the "royal We":

We hope that sorrowing church members and outside observers can understand that truth. Above all, we hope that regardless of present pain, friends at first will one day be friends again at last.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sammy Jankins wrote:I enjoyed your commentary Kiskumen. It's like the author of this piece completely forgot who his audience was.


Like many self-righteous Mopologists, he probably doesn't care who his audience is, so long as he believes that he is right.

Thanks for the compliment, Sammy!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_MsJack
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _MsJack »

Anyone who thinks that women’s voices aren’t heard and valued by LDS leaders has never been a bishop

That Mormons actually write things like this with a straight face shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_just me
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _just me »

MsJack wrote:
Anyone who thinks that women’s voices aren’t heard and valued by LDS leaders has never been a bishop

That Mormons actually write things like this with a straight face shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

It's like a different planet.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Kishkumen
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Kishkumen »

MsJack wrote:
Anyone who thinks that women’s voices aren’t heard and valued by LDS leaders has never been a bishop

That Mormons actually write things like this with a straight face shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes.


I would say I value you enough to pat you on the head, Jack, but I value my hand even more.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Mayan Elephant
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Mayan Elephant »

MsJack wrote:
Anyone who thinks that women’s voices aren’t heard and valued by LDS leaders has never been a bishop

That Mormons actually write things like this with a straight face shows just how deep the rabbit hole goes.


i have never been a bishop. no wonder i think women get the shaft. that explains it.
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_Equality
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Equality »

Kishkumen wrote:The next piece, by the aspiring Ann Coulter of Mopologetics, Cassandra Hedelius, is either slick but logically inept or just plain deceptive.

Professor, is it just because of her name that I find it impossible to believe anything she says?
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_Bazooka
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Re: Two Reflections on Kelly's Excommunication

Post by _Bazooka »

Mark Paredes is a Mormon Bishop, right?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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