"Fear runs through many Mormons in OW ranks...."

[_ZelphtheGreat]

7.Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

This question alone can do it for many who run afoul of leaders, either local or higher up. Mere association - which now appears to be visiting web sites such as this one - can be used to punish a member. Be used to put them on probation, tell them to shun family members, friends, co-workers and the like.

For kids it can be worse as they become targets used to control the parents. Watch what happens when your primary aged kid is suddenly an outcast and none of the neighbor kids or those at church will play with them. It happens. In Mormon communities it is a powerful threat to parents as no one wants their kids shunned, excluded and even actively picked on and bullied.

Non members in a Mormon community see it all the time. Friends in that situation have grown up without a neighborhood friendship as all their Mormon neighbors won't let their kids play with them. Some won't even let them in their homes. How do you explain that to a second grader?

Mormon women are in the same boat, especially in the Mormon groups they generally hang out with. Fear of being an outcast is very real. Especially with 'leaders' who can do most anything they want = like Kake Kelly and her 'super secret double probation' that did not follow any church guidelines at all.

it i a sick society but those inside live it every day.

[_EAllusion]

There was an article, I believe in the Oct. 2004 issue of Ensign, called something like "Parents with Different Standards". I remember it had this hilarious cover photo of a sullen parent cloaked in the shadows of darkness drinking a cup of coffee (the horror!) while the faithful Mormon son, smiling and bathed in white light, sat next to his glass of milk.

The photo alone already sent a clear message.

The article itself was about how children deal with parents who don't live up to Mormon standards and contained anecdotes ranging from dealing with genuinely abusive parents to things like finding out your dad is gay. The overall theme was resolving the tension between honoring your parents while recognizing they have fallen to evil and need to be kept at a comfortable mental distance to avoid negative influence. I could easily see Mak reading the article and going, "See. It encourages you to maintain relationships and build bridges where you can!" Of course, that would completely brush aside the darker subtext throughout the piece.

[_EAllusion]

I found it.

Now I just need to figure out a way to link the photo. It's exactly as I remembered it.

[_Themis]

Fear is how any organization like the church keeps control. They don't have the truth on their side, so they have to use fear.

It's certainly a useful tool they employ. Kate Kelly real sin was not apostasy but creating bad PR for the church. They have been very PR focused for many decades now, and she was doing a good job of exposing the church to how they treat women and helping many to see she is right. With conference coming up in a few months, having significantly less women showing up to priesthood session would be seen by the church as an opportunity to try and suggest it was never a serious concern for many women. I suspect this is why we are seeing threats and intimidation of those they are probably keeping track of through their strengthening the members committee. Get in line and STFU.

[_RockSlider]

Its not judging a book by its cover, its just the wrong interpretation that the group has taken from the leaderships indoctrination teachings

1. Observe if the person is wearing garments.
2. Observe if the person obeys the word of wisdom.

That's all you need to know

[_maklelan]

I am not using the term "apostate" in a sociology of religion sense. I am using it in the sense of someone who no longer believes in or participates in a faith. Feel free to lump "leave-takers" in my comment.

My assertion is the opposite. The LDS Church encourages members to hold negative views towards apostates. It isn't quite as bad as Scientology or Jehova's Witnesses, but is pretty strong as far as that sort of thing goes.

It has been in the past, but I honestly don't see it as that strong right now. I know a lot of people are working hard to try to mitigate it, and that's the sense I see in a lot of the Church's messages.

The mitigation, if it can be called that, is superficial compared to the bad feelings it encourages through the implications of its teachings. One of the reasons people associate "cultish" behavior with the LDS Church is because of how extreme it is on this front. While I might share your disdain for evangelical counter-cult movements, I recognize this sort of fierce in-group maintenance doesn't simply arise out of any large group dynamics. It is driven by the teachings of the Church and its ecclesiastical hierarchy. It isn't any different with what goes on in JW society.

That's simply not true at all. The insularity of the Jehovah's Witnesses puts Mormonism to shame. You're well overestimating the degree of the Church's cultural quarantine.

Not to the same degree, no.

I didn't say to the same degree. Every group is going to experience it to different degrees just in virtue of being different groups with different constellations of ideologies. It is primarily a function of group dynamics, though.

If you think Universalist Unitarians and Mormons are equivalent on this front, I think you aren't paying attention.

I didn't say that, and Universalist Unitarians are a quite unique group in that regard.

At all. Mormons are far more willing to think negatively about, avoid, or shun ex-members than the norm.

"Than the norm"? And what is the norm? How have you identified and quantified it?

Either you are oblivious to how significant this is in LDS subculture or not in-tune with how different it is in many other religious groups.

I am neither.

I am saying that central authority, especially as it is constructed and maintained in the LDS Church, has a significant influence on LDS thought and behavior and this includes how LDS think about and treat others. Mormons simply are more inclined towards shunning for various reasons than Episcopalians, and its organizational leadership is not completely irrelevant to this fact.

I didn't say it was completely irrelevant.

Ignoring the fact that the LDS Church isn't always completely consistent in its communication for a moment, pointing out that not every member does every single thing the Church recommends with perfect fidelity is quite the strawman argument against this.

You know that's not my argument.

[_canpakes]

My assertion is the opposite. The LDS Church encourages members to hold negative views towards apostates. It isn't quite as bad as Scientology or Jehova's Witnesses, but is pretty strong as far as that sort of thing goes.

It has been in the past, but I honestly don't see it as that strong right now. I know a lot of people are working hard to try to mitigate it, and that's the sense I see in a lot of the Church's messages.

Maklelan -

I cannot agree that the position that you are taking is as defensible as you may think that it is, for several reasons.

One only needs to read Chapter 27 of the Joseph Smith volume of the 'Teachings of the Presidents of the Church' series to witness the long-term attitude of the Church towards apostates/apostacy. It wasn't but a few years ago when I sat in on this lesson during a PH meeting. The message is strongly negative and liberally sprinkled with fear and persecution triggers throughout. That this was presented Church-wide as recently as it was doesn't bolster the idea that the Church is backing away from that message with any haste, if it is backing away at all.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng

Regarding fear/negative attitudes vis-à-vis 'social control': The degree of control exercised by the Church, insasmuch as it is reflected by individual members through correlated and repeated messages and lessons provided exclusively by Church leadership, may be less noticeable to someone who has been emotionally molded within it since birth, as opposed to an outsider. As the latter (married into the Church), my experience has been that there appears to be an unusual level of fear exhibited by many BIC LDS members associated with exploration of Church concepts/truth claims any further than what the 'correlated' material dictates. Other members who do so and subsequently question any correlated story or suffer a faith setback may find themselves unable to be forthright with their feelings to family members due to the emotional distress and fallout that subsequently occurs between the questioner and other 'faithful' relatives. I see this consistently with my SO's extended family and friends (long term Church participation) yet haven't witnessed this behavior with any non-LDS individual inside or outside of my own family at anywhere near the same level of intensity. YMMV, of course, but this is a serious observation without exaggeration. If not driven from the top ranks of leadership down into the membership, how else would this behavior end up manifesting so completely and consistently?

[_sock puppet]

it is only natural that this might influence how people treat apostates.

And those negative views of apostates are also only natural. The LDS Church tries hard to mitigate them, as you are hopefully aware.

What are some examples of the LDS Church trying hard to mitigate them?

[_palerobber]

LDS Church Spokesperson Ally Isom 6/17/2014:

The conversation about ordaining women "is not the problem," Isom said. "It is not what is being said — it is how it is being said that becomes problematic." Though declining to speak specifically about Kelly’s case, Isom did say conversations about women’s ordination to the priesthood are taking place everywhere, including in the church’s weekly women’s Relief Society meetings.

vs.

"When I renewed my temple recommend last month, the stake president’s first counselor refused to give it to me because of Ordain Women. But when I took it to the president, he gave it to me on the promise that I would pray about taking my profile down, and not talk about [female ordination] anywhere on church property, even the hallways," she says.

[_palerobber]

from MD&D (my emphasis):

Ally Isom Radio West interview, 6/17/14 (a partial transcription starting at about 36:31.)

Fabrizio: How and where can a member express doubts or opinions in good faith. But what if you believe, as some women do, that it's time for the church to give women the priesthood? In a congregation a woman could stand up and say that?

Isom: In my congregation we can. I love what Sis. Burton just said. . .women shoulder burdens, we come from so many backgrounds, but we have to be each others' safe space. It has to be through one another that we have these conversations.

Isom: There are many avenues to express that and discuss that. No one is questioning your ability in a congregation, in a Sunday school class, in a Relief Society class Quoting President Burton: We have to be each other's safe space, it has to be through one another that we can have this conversation.

Fabrizio: So it's ok for a woman in a Relief Society meeting to stand up and say, you know within the proper context of the lesson and whatever, [Isom] Respectfully. [Fabrizio] Respectfully. "Hey, sisters, let's talk about the possibility that it's time now, for church leaders, like they did with the priesthood and blacks, to change that. There were lessons from history where women reportedly gave blessings and we did have this power and it sort of went away with us. . .let's talk about that. The church is cool with that?

[Isom] The conversation is welcome. We've had a similar conversation in my Relief Society about gay marriage. . .we have those conversations, it is a safe place. It has to be through one another that we have these conversations.

vs.

"When I renewed my temple recommend last month, the stake president’s first counselor refused to give it to me because of Ordain Women. But when I took it to the president, he gave it to me on the promise that I would pray about taking my profile down, and not talk about [female ordination] anywhere on church property, even the hallways," she says.