Explaining the Book of Mormon

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_Themis
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Themis »

mentalgymnast wrote:So let's go with the intent to deceive option. We have the scripture found in the New Testament that says something to the effect that a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.


I agree with others you are going to an extreme. It's an absurdity to think that people are 100% bad or good. People tend to be both. Joseph can deceive and still come up with doctrines and teachings people will like. It's quite common for many to have areas they are not very honest or good, but in other areas be very good people.
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_Jaybear
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Jaybear »

Runtu wrote:Point taken. What fascinates me is that even 200 years later there are still people insisting that he actually could see lost or buried objects by looking at a stone Willard Chase found in a well. It boggles the mind.


I haven't seen that.

Before I was banned from the other board, I asked Peterson and others on several occasions if they believe that Smith had the ability to locate buried treasure by looking at a stone in his hat. I never received a simple yes or no answer to what is a very simple question. The most I would get was "I don't know."
_Jaybear
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Jaybear »

Nevo wrote:I don't know whether Joseph Smith could see lost objects with his seer stone, but I'm disinclined to think that he was consciously deceptive. I tend to think his scrying efforts were sincere.


Why? What possible reason exists that allows you to believe that Joseph Smith (or anyone) had the ability to locate an object by looking at a stone placed in his hat?
_Themis
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Themis »

Runtu wrote:
Nevo wrote:I don't know whether Joseph Smith could see lost objects with his seer stone, but I'm disinclined to think that he was consciously deceptive. I tend to think his scrying efforts were sincere.


I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, as this is one of those things I find very difficult to believe someone can be mistaken about. Either you see things in a stone, or you don't. But that's just me.


I remember reading some of these stories. I couldn't help but think these are classic psychic tricks. Joseph was looking for Martin's hat pin before being asked to use his stone. Does any re ally think Josephs wouldn't have an idea that he might ask if he had it. I know I would have some fun if I had found the pin. I would hide it under something and wait to be asked. It's interesting that he reached for a branch and found it under the branch. The wallet story Joseph was not entirely correct about it's location, but had the general area. All he had to do was ask some questions beforehand about what he was doing and it would not take a genius to think his wallet dropped out while fixing his wagon wheel.
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_tld
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _tld »

Runtu wrote:From my experience as an author, my book was my "baby" while I was writing it and for a short period after I published it. Oddly enough, some readers have asked me about specific parts of the book, and I've had to reread it to remember what they're talking about. So, no, I don't think that an author necessarily obsesses on his baby or remembers the details. I suspect he was like I am, focused on my next project.

As for his "surprise," the only thing I can think of that Emma said he was surprised about was that Jerusalem was a walled city. If I take her word for it, it suggests that someone else may have written that part, but then that doesn't mean it was revealed or channeled.


But your book was for a time your baby.
What evidence is there that Joseph Smith was ever aware of and took an interest in the content of the Book of Mormon, until maybe later?

The problem is that we have multiple witnesses (and a court record) indicating that Joseph admitted he couldn't see anything in the hat and promised to stop doing it. But, as we know, he went back to it nonetheless.


This has been answered in a subsequent post.

This is unfortunately pure speculation based on no evidence.


What hypothesis is there that tries to explain how the Book of Mormon came into existence that does not involve at least some speculation.

How can we say what he "likely thought"?


Joseph Smith said that he did what he did "by the gift and power of God."

I am totally sincere. I don't give it much support for the reasons I've given. I don't see any reason to believe that Joseph thought and acted in a certain way because we imagine that's what happened.


Of course you don't, given your experience and belief. Given my experience and belief, I see it differently.

Key things for me:

1. Joseph's career as a treasure seeker was a complete failure.
2. Joseph admitted that he couldn't see anything in the stone and promised to give up the practice.
3. He used the same stone to translate gold plates that he said he had.
4. The translation turns out to be pretty obviously a 19th-century creation.

None of this requires anything supernatural and indeed it points away from the supernatural, in my opinion.


1 and 2 have been answered in subsequent posts.

3 You probably didn't mean to say it this way. He said he had gold plates, but he did not use his stone to translate from those plates. The stone could have been used to channel the text of the Book of Mormon.

4 This is true, although the Book of Mormon is not limited to this. This is, in my opinion, not evidence against the supernatural. Who says that a channeled text cannot contain information about the 19th century?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Nevo
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Nevo »

Jaybear wrote:What possible reason exists that allows you to believe that Joseph Smith (or anyone) had the ability to locate an object by looking at a stone placed in his hat?

Like I said, I don't know what Joseph Smith saw (or thought he saw) or didn't see in his seer stone. I do know that he wasn't the first person in history to use a seer stone or claim clairvoyance. Since I don't think such people are always, in every case, consciously deceptive, and since I believe the teenage Joseph Smith was essentially truthful, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Is that unreasonable?
_Jaybear
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Jaybear »

Nevo wrote:Like I said, I don't know what Joseph Smith saw (or thought he saw) or didn't see in his seer stone. I do know that he wasn't the first person in history to use a seer stone or claim clairvoyance. Since I don't think such people are always, in every case, consciously deceptive, and since I believe the teenage Joseph Smith was essentially truthful, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Is that unreasonable?


As you phrased the question ... no. I don't think its unreasonable to give Smith the "benefit of the doubt" and presume that he may have THOUGHT he had the ability to locate buried treasure by looking at a rock in his hat.

Personally, I feel I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, because I am inclined to believe he was engaged in a conscious deception, and not as you suggest, a delusional fool. Delusional for obvious reasons. A fool, because if he really believed he could locate buried treasure, it was foolish for him to lead others to the booty.

by the way, you did not answer my question. Do you believe its possible to find buried treasure by looking at stone in hat?
_Bazooka
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Bazooka »

Nevo wrote:
Jaybear wrote:What possible reason exists that allows you to believe that Joseph Smith (or anyone) had the ability to locate an object by looking at a stone placed in his hat?

Like I said, I don't know what Joseph Smith saw (or thought he saw) or didn't see in his seer stone. I do know that he wasn't the first person in history to use a seer stone or claim clairvoyance. Since I don't think such people are always, in every case, consciously deceptive, and since I believe the teenage Joseph Smith was essentially truthful, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Is that unreasonable?


On what basis then does Joseph stand out from the other self-proclaimed clairvoyants of the era to the point that people will dedicate their lives to follow him and on what basis is Josephs' self-proclaimed clairvoyance materially different to that of Warren Jeffs?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Nevo
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Nevo »

Jaybear wrote:by the way, you did not answer my question. Do you believe its possible to find buried treasure by looking at stone in hat?

I wouldn't say that I have a positive "belief" that such things are possible. I tend to be skeptical of psychic claims, and skeptical of extraordinary/supernatural claims generally. But can I say that I am absolutely certain that it could never under any circumstance happen? No. I'm not that smart.

Wikipedia reports that remote viewing is now widely regarded as pseudoscience—and rightly so I suspect. But I am surprised that professed remote viewers ever get anything right at all. Are these apparent "hits" always due to inadvertent cuing, etc. Can "anomalous cognition" be definitively ruled out in every case? What of the unusual brain activity supposedly displayed by some psychics while in an "intuitive state"? Do any questions still remain about psychic phenomena or is it completely settled that it's spurious? (I don't know. I'm asking.)

Bottom line: I don't know enough to confidently rule out the efficacy of scrying or water dowsing or remote viewing, or whatever, in every case.
_Jaybear
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Re: Explaining the Book of Mormon

Post by _Jaybear »

Nevo wrote: I wouldn't say that I have a positive "belief" that such things are possible. I tend to be skeptical of psychic claims, and skeptical of extraordinary/supernatural claims generally. But can I say that I am absolutely certain that it could never under any circumstance happen? No. I'm not that smart.


I am not sure we disagree, other than the words we choose to use.

I don't believe that its possible to find buried treasure by looking at a rock. I recognize that its possible that I am wrong. Its happened many times before. If at sometime in the future, someone proves otherwise, I would reconsider my beliefs.
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