Masturbation OK for TBM's after marriage?

[_Ludd]

First of all, I'm not sure if this will be kosher for the Terrestrial Forum, so if Dr. Shades decides to move it to the Telestial, I'm fine with that.

So, a little context: I've been divorced for a while now, but still have a very friendly relationship with my ex-wife. I won't go into any details, but suffice it to say that we didn't divorce because of sex-related issues. To the contrary, that was probably the best functioning aspect of our marriage. Neither one of us has remarried yet, and to my knowledge she hasn't even made any moves in that direction. No dating or anything. I figure she is waiting until the kids are all grown and out of the house. She is very attractive and I'm sure she wouldn't have much trouble finding someone attracted to her.

Anyway, we were talking on the phone the other day, and I just happened to make a joke about how long it has been since she had an orgasm. Without skipping a beat, she very matter of factly told me it had only been two days. I was a little shocked and asked her who she had met. Keep in mind that she is still very TBM, serves in the YW presidency in her ward, goes to the temple, etc. Anyway, she clarified by telling me that she masturbates 2 or 3 times a week! When I heard that, I said to her: "Seriously? Don't you worry that you're being sinful by doing that"? She replied, without any hesitation, that masturbation wasn't sinful at all once you'd been married, and that she didn't feel guilty at all for doing it. After thinking about it for a while, I wasn't super surprised, since I knew she was very, shall we say, skillful at masturbation, and that she was always able to achieve earth-shaking orgasms in that manner. It's just that I'm almost certain she never did it, while we were married, unless I was right there with her, or on the phone with her. At least that's what she told me, and I have no reason to think she wasn't telling the truth.

Anyway, this was the first I had ever heard of this kind of liberal attitude towards masturbation among TBM's. Is this something that is believed by lots of people out there in Mormon-land? Don’t get me wrong, I don't think masturbation is sinful at all. I just never thought a TBM would think the same way.

[_Some Schmo]

Masturbation leads to homosexuality, don'tcha know? How could that be ok for married people when they don't support same sex marriage?

If she's prodding the clam, she's doing in in a very cafeteria mo kind of way, if you ask me.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Ludd,

I commend you for being so concerned about your ex-wife's little factory. Many years ago, we were given some very inspired counsel about avoiding masturbation at all costs. Here are some suggestions from that inspired counsel that might help your ex-wife overcome this most pernicious and sinful act:

1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.

2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.

3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don't suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will.

4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes -- just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.

5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.

6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.

7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember -- "First a thought, then an act."

8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books -- Church books -- Scriptures -- Sermons of the Brethern.

9. Pray. But when you pray, don't pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever.

10. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a pre-chosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.

11. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.

12. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.

13. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.

14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.

15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.

16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.

17. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.

http://www.moonmac.com/Mormon_masturbation.html

[_DarkHelmet]

Ar you sure she knows what the words "masturbation" and "orgasm" mean? Maybe she watches a PG rated romantic comedy twice a week and it gets her juices flowing. That might be the single TBM equivalent of masturbating to orgasm.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Maybe she watches a PG rated romantic comedy twice a week and it gets her juices flowing.

Either that, or the Twilight movies.

[_Ludd]

Ludd,

I commend you for being so concerned about your ex-wife's little factory. Many years ago, we were given some very inspired counsel about avoiding masturbation at all costs. Here are some suggestions from that inspired counsel that might help your ex-wife overcome this most pernicious and sinful act:

1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.

2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.

3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don't suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will.

4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes -- just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.

5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.

6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.

7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember -- "First a thought, then an act."

8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books -- Church books -- Scriptures -- Sermons of the Brethern.

9. Pray. But when you pray, don't pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever.

10. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a pre-chosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.

11. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.

12. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.

13. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.

14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.

15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.

16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.

17. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.

http://www.moonmac.com/Mormon_masturbation.html

That is pretty scary stuff. Still, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't that intended for a pre-marital audience? My question was actually meant to be taken seriously. Ok, pretty seriously. Is there really anything in Mormon teachings that suggests masturbation is sinful after marriage? I had to admit, during the conversation with my ex, that I honestly couldn't think of anything I'd ever heard that would suggest that. It seems like all the anti-masturbation rhetoric was always directed towards youth. But I could be wrong. That's why I posed the question here.

[_Ludd]

Ar you sure she knows what the words "masturbation" and "orgasm" mean?

Yes.

Absolutely certain.

This is a woman who was very comfortable with her sexuality. Yes, she was a virgin when we married, but she didn't seem to have any problems "changing gears" after she got a ring on her finger. Believe me when I say I would go back to her in a heartbeat if she were willing.

Maybe she watches a PG rated romantic comedy twice a week and it gets her juices flowing. That might be the single TBM equivalent of masturbating to orgasm.

Maybe so, but not in this case.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/17/pro ... f-history/

It appears that Spencer W. Kimball would have been against post-marital masturbation. But then again, Spencer W. Kimball was also against blacks having the priesthood for a good part of his presidency.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Ludd,

There are many things in life to worry about. This isn't one of them.

Here is a quote I think will help answer your question:

"What love you've given yourself, you'll have forever. What love you fail to give, will be lost for all eternity." Leo Buscaglia

[_Ludd]

http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/17/prophetic-counsel-about-sex-within-marriage-a-brief-history/

It appears that Spencer W. Kimball would have been against post-marital masturbation. But then again, Spencer W. Kimball was also against blacks having the priesthood for a good part of his presidency.

Everybody Wang Chung:

I read the article you linked to, but I don't see anything in it that would lead to the conclusion you seem to have reached: "that Spencer W. Kimball would have been against post-marital masturbation."

There are many things in life to worry about. This isn't one of them.

I'm not worried about this at all. I'm just curious. I had never given much thought to the question before my recent conversation with my ex. And now I have to admit that she seems to have made a pretty good argument. At least I haven't yet seen anything that seems to contradict her argument, including the article you linked to.

Edit: It's too bad the church didn't just stick with the statement that the article quoted from Joseph F. Smith and leave it at that. Seems to me it would have saved alot of people alot of angst as a result of the infamous "oral sex" letter that the article cites.