"Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

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_Rosebud
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"Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _Rosebud »

I wrote the post quoted below last night and put it at the bottom of this thread. I received some private feedback that the post was worth reading, so I figured I'd give it a bit more exposure by creating a thread of my own for it, especially considering the fact that the long threads about the poster we're currently referring to as "mormonstories" can get a bit cumbersome.

The thread linked above is the superficial context for the post quoted below. One of "mormonstories'" posts in that thread includes the word "histrionics" and some other abusive language directed towards me. Those words are my post's initial context, but its real context is the long term conflict, the wrongs that mormonstories has spent a lot of time and energy covering up over the last few years and the tactics he has used against me in order to do so. Thus, I think my post can stand on its own in a new thread and I hope that this increased exposure may be helpful in some way.

I keep promising myself that I'll get my real work done instead of paying any more attention to this conflict. As you can imagine, dealing with "mormonstories'" personal attacks and exclusions and watching his public manipulations have already taken away too much of my life energy. It's not fun to have the biggest man on the block doing whatever he can to destroy and silence me, especially considering that such a powerful institution and so many important people are now watching. Plus, since any action I take generally evokes a strong reaction from "mormonstories" and because those reactions often include some sort of annoying media or Facebook campaign (read the other thread if you're interested in a few of the details), saying too much at once can be more taxing than I'd like anything related to "mormonstories" to be. It's not fun to know that what I do has progressive Mormon backlash because "mormonstories" may over-react to it. Although, his knowledge that I don't like the over-reactions also works to his benefit because he understands that reacting in big ways contributes to my silence and my silence is his objective.

So, I'm saying this to explain that even though I am starting this thread, I am also promising myself that I will not watch it and will get my more important work done today instead. I ask people to ping me on Facebook if something is posted that I might want to respond to.

Also, as I stated in the other thread, I am very much hoping that "mormonstories" will at least try to choose to cultivate patience and forbearance and will not respond to this post by attacking or escalating or causing whatever media drama he thinks might help his cause today. I say this because I genuinely try to have hope that he will take care of himself and his family in healthy ways instead of continuing to try to care for himself and them through media tactics. I feel no personal need to hurt him or the people he loves and I worry that through hurting him I will also hurt progressive Mormonism, a cause I care about, because he has used media to make himself "the" leader of the cause. I also feel very concerned about the harm the wide scale dramas and false media campaigns are having on progressive Mormonism and I'd like to see them stop.

So, with that in mind.... "mormonstories" I again ask you to walk away from the computer if this post upsets you. Your attacks of me, your tactical podcasting and and your media campaigns will not help. It has come to the point that they testify against you instead of for you. What will help is just taking care of you. I have no need to watch you suffer. I'd prefer to not watch you at all (and I generally don't). I do have a need to speak and continue my work and to watch progressive Mormonism thrive instead of to see so many fantastic potential leaders wither because you are taking too much sunshine for yourself. So share the sun and keep up the good work you do with your podcast, but leave it at that, k? Forget Laurie Goodstein or martyrdom or whatever else seems to be of value to you. All that stuff is just fame and real happiness is not in fame, it is in living a good life and in helping yourself in real ways rather than through all these tactical maneuvers.

I genuinely had no desire to attack you in August of 2012. I only wanted to save the business for the donors because there are many people who need support and are not receiving it from the church. I just knew you well enough to know that I had to prepare for the worst from you. I therefore set myself a solid foundation from which I could protect myself. I told you that I would do so if you chose to attack; we had that conversation a few times or more. You did choose to attack, I did prepare my defenses and part of my defenses include some offenses should I need to employ them. The framework is laid, and it will not disappear if you escalate and attack it harder. It will become insignificant if you make it insignificant through deciding to end your campaigns. I'm honestly just sick of this war. I never wanted to fight it in the first place; I wanted to serve progressive Mormons.

So please, "mormonstories" no more escalations. The drama is so counterproductive to progressive Mormonism. People are tired of it and I think it's fair that I speak to defend my own credibility and decisions after you have worked so diligently to silence and discredit me. But don't make the situation worse by continuing on with your media tactics and retaliating against me further. Like the public, I am tired. More tired, I am sure. Life is so much more than all this ridiculousness. It can genuinely be beautiful.

Also: to the public..... if it would do any good to say these things to "mormonstories" privately, I would have no need to say them here. I don't like all this public drama. The thing is, "mormonstories" only responds to power and there is great power in media and publicity (he uses it himself often). I am speaking publicly because speaking privately does no good. I've tried. Speaking publicly is what's left; it would never have been my first (or even my tenth) choice. I wrote about escalation in the "acknowledging exceptions" section of the CTW Standards of Ethical Communication and Conflict Resolution because I have learned that sometimes there is no way to avoid it. It is not a wise first choice, however, but when you're dealing with someone who prefers escalation and power tactics, it can become the best choice as time progresses, however unfortunate that may be.

My post from the other thread:

I've been thinking today about this whole "histrionics" debate. I'd like to add, as the person to whom the disparaging word and other abusive remarks were directed, that I have learned to take mormonstories' many public and private attacks of my character to be indications that I have credibility rather than that my credibility should be in question. He is attempting to demonstrate that I am someone whose words can't be trusted and whose testimony is not reliable because it's to his benefit if people see me as less than I am. I believe that the fact that he works so hard to discredit me indicates that I have something credible to say. And that, for what it's worth, would be true even if I really did have a personality disorder (which I of course don't).

Here are a few questions for thought, however: What if I were "less" than I am? What if I weren't "stable"? What if I did have some sort of personality disorder? If those things were true (and they aren't, but if they were...) would that make my testimony any less valid than it is? Would my supposed problems make the ways he has treated me moral? In fact, wouldn't any vulnerability I might have only make any actions he may or may not have taken against me (since nothing has been proven) even more immoral? The "less" that I am (by whatever standards he is attempting to use today) only makes him more heinous for anything he does or has done to hurt me, does it not? One could argue that the stronger of a person I am, the less despicable his actions may be. My vulnerabilities at any time I have known him only increase his culpability, right?

One of the beautiful things about psychology in 2014, is that people aren't discriminated against for being "weak." A "weak" person isn't seen as less, but as someone who should be helped or who might need treatment or support. And people aren't seen as good or bad or credible or as people who don't have credibility, but as individuals with needs and weakness and strengths and positive traits and difficulties that might hold them back. If indeed I am "weak" or "histrionic" (ha!... that is pretty funny, no?), shouldn't mormonstories and all of you not serve me?

Also, if I am not weak, is it therefore more appropriate for him to attack me? The answer is of course no, but attacking a "histrionic" person is surely worse than attacking someone who is perfectly capable (as I am) of not taking the attack seriously. It's sad to think of how terrible it might be to publicly call a "histrionic" person "histrionic." That would be even lower than what mormonstories did and has done to me many times in the past.

And don't get me wrong, his many public and private attacks have hurt me in the past and I DO very much HATE being in this situation. (I can't say HATE strongly enough; what self-respecting woman would EVER want to be in my shoes?) I am not pretending to be a person who is made of steel; I see no value in striving to be that kind of human being and I do not believe that when a person acts emotionally, that person should be discredited. In fact, emotional responses, to me, are often testimonies against the person who is the attacker, not demonstrations that the person who has been attacked should not be listened to. It's just that over the last two years of being on the receiving end of so many personal and public attacks, I have become very cognizant that attacks tell me far more about the person who is attacking me than they do about me. Over time, I believe I have developed skills to deal with people who treat me the way mormonstories treats me (as he is not the only person I have dealt with in my life who perpetually attacks me). Over time, I have learned the skill of distancing myself from the attacks and seeing them as information about my attackers rather than information about me.

In a nutshell, nothing mormonstories says about me changes my credibility. What mormonstories says about me changes his credibility. I represent me; mormonstories represents him. And since I have safely distanced myself from him in enough ways (like blocking him on Facebook, for example) for me to feel comfortable engaging in this conversation, I can let his attacks roll off my back and know who I am regardless.

This strength comes from within and is something I feel thankful to have been able to gain much more of over the last two years. But.... like I said.... don't mormonstories' aggressive actions only act as evidence that I may have something to say even if I am choosing what I believe to be calm forbearance and compassion in my decision to not publicize my evidence for the sake of progressive Mormons and mormonstories' children and wife and my own future? Shouldn't my own perception that I am being calm, steady and am demonstrating restraint in my decisions at least affect your perceptions of my incentives and determinations to do what I hope is best even if you disagree with my decisions?

Do you, as members of the public, need my evidence or has mormonstories already provided enough of his own through his many exclusions of me and his public treatment of me in this thread and in other public and private forums? I am sure the answer will be different for each of you, but I do think this is a question that it might be worth asking yourselves if you find yourselves believing his attempts to discredit me. What do you think it is like to be in the position I am in? What would you do with all of these double binds that I am sure you are starting to see if you are paying attention and are attempting to put yourselves in my shoes?
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

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_schreech
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _schreech »

Rosebud wrote:Image
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_RockSlider
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _RockSlider »

Like I mentioned in the other thread, memories of nick the white faced Mormon hit me.

I say let it be.
_Equality
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _Equality »

More gaslighting from schreech and RockSlider. Shameful. Who's obsessed with whom again?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_schreech
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _schreech »

Equality wrote:Image
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_Equality
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _Equality »

schreech wrote:Image
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_cwald
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _cwald »

Just want to point out that John walked away from his computer a few days ago... left the boards.

Perhaps now Rosebud should take her own advice and do the same?

I think Mayan was right in the other thread... and I really want to understand and be empathic, but Rosebud is simply not helping herself with these posts. Her message is getting lost in unsubstantiated accusations, and claims that it's not a personal and that she has "already let it go" when it is obvious to everyone that she had not.

Now....

Let's say that everything Rose has said is true.... Fine. Okay. But The facts are, that all these threads on NOM and MDB were started by JD "critics" not JD himself. Most of the posters on both these boards had no idea who their in real life were, and most of us STILL don't know what Rose is talking about or what the hell this is all about.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Sethbag
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _Sethbag »

Equality wrote:More gaslighting from schreech and RockSlider. Shameful. Who's obsessed with whom again?

Please explain in what way you think Schreech and Rockslider are gaslighting. I'm asking honestly, because I don't see it, but if it's there, I'm willing to be shown.

My take is that Screech and RockSlider are reacting to several days' worth of Rosebud writing book-length screeds in which she denounces JD as a really, really bad man who done her wrong over and over, without actually explaining why he is bad, or what wrong he done her.

Here's the summary of her postings, from the point of view of people like me, RockSlider, Screech, and probably many others, who have no fetching clue what all this past history is between Rosebud and JD, and are mystified by all her hand-wringing and threats-that-aren't-threats:

"Trust me, guys, if you only knew what I knew, you'd think he was a bad man too, and you'd be all sympathetic with me for the wrong he's done me, but I'm not going to tell you any of what it is, but if he doesn't straighten himself out, I'm documenting it all, and I will DESTROY HIS LIFE, but only if he makes me do it, and so help me Dawg, JD, you should just chill out, and move on, as I have, but I'm ready to DESTROY YOUR LIFE at any moment if you push me too far, but I've already gotten over it and moved on with my life..."

Now Equality, honestly, how is this sort of thing not a trainwreck on a board like this? Granted, you seem to know more of the backstory than most of the rest of us do, so try to put yourselves in our shoes, and read what she's saying as if you didn't know WHAT THE ACTUAL FUQK she's talking about. How does it look now?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_cwald
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _cwald »

Sethbag wrote:
Equality wrote:More gaslighting from schreech and RockSlider. Shameful. Who's obsessed with whom again?

Please explain in what way you think Schreech and Rockslider are gaslighting. I'm asking honestly, because I don't see it, but if it's there, I'm willing to be shown.

My take is that Screech and RockSlider are reacting to several days' worth of Rosebud writing book-length screeds in which she denounces JD as a really, really bad man who done her wrong over and over, without actually explaining why he is bad, or what wrong he done her.

Here's the summary of her postings, from the point of view of people like me, RockSlider, Screech, and probably many others, who have no fetching clue what all this past history is between Rosebud and JD, and are mystified by all her hand-wringing and threats-that-aren't-threats:

"Trust me, guys, if you only knew what I knew, you'd think he was a bad man too, and you'd be all sympathetic with me for the wrong he's done me, but I'm not going to tell you any of what it is, but if he doesn't straighten himself out, I'm documenting it all, and I will DESTROY HIS LIFE, but only if he makes me do it, and so help me Dawg, JD, you should just chill out, and move on, as I have, but I'm ready to DESTROY YOUR LIFE at any moment if you push me too far, but I've already gotten over it and moved on with my life..."

Now Equality, honestly, how is this sort of thing not a trainwreck on a board like this? Granted, you seem to know more of the backstory than most of the rest of us do, so try to put yourselves in our shoes, and read what she's saying as if you didn't know WHAT THE ACTUAL FUQK she's talking about. How does it look now?


Yep. That is what I wanted to say. I just don't have the writing skills to explain it that clearly.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Equality
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Re: "Mormonstories," Me, Credibility, Evidence, Double Binds

Post by _Equality »

Comparing her to the mentally ill gentleman who dressed in white, painted his face, and ranted at people on Temple Square is gaslighting. You may not like that she has made vague allegations without providing specifics. I totally get that. But even if your summary of what she has done here is correct, it does not come anywhere close to being equivalent to the behavior that the "White Mormon" engaged in. Drawing that comparison has one purpose only: to suggest that Rosebud is mentally ill and should therefore not be listened to. It dovetails, incidentally, with MS/JD's use of the word "histrionics" and the repeated suggestions from MS/JD's lickspittles that Rosebud is like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. It's a way of deflecting from the substance of what Rosebud has written rather than addressing it.

I think Hasa Diga Eebowai expressed well the reasons why someone without inside knowledge or a long personal history with MS/JD might receive Rosebud's words with skepticism and a "wait and see" attitude. I agree with probably 95% of what he said. But I certainly don't think the attacks on Rosebud from RockSlider and schreech are justified. I find it to be in extraordinarily bad taste for people who admit they don't know the facts to go after someone who has indicated she has been seriously abused in some way by a powerful public figure. I have seen this play out many times over the years in other contexts (think about what has happened when women have come forward with allegations of impropriety against public officials, for example). I have no doubt that Rosebud has as well, which perhaps explains her reticence up to now to take him on. I have also seen how MS/JD and his spaniels react in this forum and in many others when anyone dares to question or criticize him. So I am naturally sympathetic to Rosebud's concerns about showing all her cards.

Would I have handled this the way Rosebud has? Probably not. But maybe. I don't have all the details and it is possible that she has determined that this is the best way for her to accomplish her objectives, and that she doesn't really care if she persuades any of the people posting here or not. Personally, I think it is generally best if you have "the goods" on someone to either keep them tightly under wraps or lay them out all at once in full view for all to see. Obviously, Rosebud has decided on a different approach. She may have good reasons for it. I certainly don't see anything in her posts that suggests that she is mentally unhinged in the way that RockSlider and MS/JD have suggested. She comes across to me as someone who has been hurt and manipulated and threatened, and has been put in a double-bind by the person who harmed her. And that's the thing about double-binds: if she reveals too much, the trap gets sprung.

I guess I could be wrong. Maybe I have misjudged Rosebud. She seems to me to be intelligent and sincere and in full control of her mental faculties. I suppose it could turn out that she is as insane as "Nick the White Mormon" But as she pointed out, if that is the case, is she not deserving of our compassion rather than our condemnation?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
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