How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

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_Craig Paxton
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Tobin wrote:
bcspace wrote:One could probably start with the Wikipedia article on Mark 16 itself and have enough information to make a good case for Mark 16:9-20's inclusion. The article has a section entitled "Mark 16:9–20 in the manuscripts and patristic evidence".

The problem I have with Craig is he just leaps off into la-la-land based on the most unfounded assertions and generalizations without examining them in the slightest. Bear in mind he has no proof of his assertions. Also, I can't believe all Biblical scholars (whoever they are?) agree on any single thing including this. That seems to be a laughable assertion all by itself.

Just when we were going to be friends...oh well...“F” that...

I never said ALL...although I didn't use a qualifier. I do feel its safe to say that a vast majority of biblical scholars ( the outliers would be LDS biblical scholars) question these verses since they do not appear in our earliest manuscripts...they only appear in later copies of these manuscripts...which would appear then to make Mark 16:9-20 additions to the text.

* From the Wiki Page: The vast majority of contemporary New Testament textual critics (see also Textual criticism) have concluded that neither the longer nor shorter endings were originally part of Mark's Gospel. This conclusion extends back as far as the middle of the nineteenth century. Harnack, for instance, was convinced that the original ending was lost.[40] Rendel Harris (1907) supplied the theory that Mark 16:8 had continued with the words "of the Jews."[41] By the middle of the 20th century, it had become the dominant belief that the Long Ending was not genuine. By this time, most translations were adding notes to indicate that neither the Long Ending nor the Short Ending were original. Examples include Mongomery's New Testament ("The closing verses of Mark's gospel are probably a later addition...," 1924); Goodspeed's (who includes both endings as "Ancient Appendices," 1935); Williams' New Testament ("Later mss add vv. 9-20," 1937); and the Revised Standard Version (1946), which placed the Long Ending in a footnote. Tradition intervened, and by the early 1970s the complaints in favor of the verses were strong enough to prompt a revision of the RSV (1971) which restored the verses to the text—albeit with a note about their dubiousness. The vast majority of modern scholars remain convinced that neither of the two endings is Marcan.

In Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament[42] Metzger states: "Thus, on the basis of good external evidence and strong internal considerations it appears that the earliest ascertainable form of the Gospel of Mark ended with 16:8. Three possibilities are open: (a) the evangelist intended to close his Gospel at this place; or (b) the Gospel was never finished; or, as seems most probable, (c) the Gospel accidentally lost its last leaf before it was multiplied by transcription."

The 1984 printing of the NIV translation notes: "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9–20." However, the Committee on Bible Translation has since changed this to read "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9–20."
Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

I know nothing about scholars suspecting this verse in Mark was put in later, but, using the Book of Mormon timeline, wouldn't Moroni have written the passage we also find in Mark, sometime in the early 400's A.D.? I don't know when Mark (or whoever) wrote the Gospel of Mark that we find in the Bible, but wouldn't it have been roughly around 50-75 A.D. (quite a while before Moroni wrote his passage)? When do the scholars think the verse in question was added to the Gospel of Mark?

EDITED to fix dates and authors.
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_bcspace
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _bcspace »

Would you agree BC that IF it could be shown that Mark 16:9-20 was in fact a late scribal addition to the original manuscript that this would prove difficult for LDS apologists?

Sure. Apparently, it's a pretty big IF...
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_mackay11
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _mackay11 »

I asked MDDB about Mark 16 while still TBM.

There are even Mormon Bible scholars at BYU saying it's not original. 8 pages (and 2 years) later and still nothing approaching an answer. Last time I checked FAIR they had pretty much ignored it. Cdowis did, at least, pause long enough to basically say "Bible scholars? Pah, what do they know? The tail doesn't wag the dog."

Among the smokiest of smoking guns.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/593 ... 6mormon-9/
_mackay11
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _mackay11 »

bcspace wrote:
Would you agree BC that IF it could be shown that Mark 16:9-20 was in fact a late scribal addition to the original manuscript that this would prove difficult for LDS apologists?


Sure. Apparently, it's a pretty big IF...


The biggest irony of Mark 16 is that it should be among apologists favourite evidence to show that the Bible is flawed and corrupted by the designs of men... And yet they can't, shackled by their own commitment to pointing at the Book of Mormon and saying: "here be treasure."
_DarkHelmet
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

mackay11 wrote:
The biggest irony of Mark 16 is that it should be among apologists favourite evidence to show that the Bible is flawed and corrupted by the designs of men... And yet they can't, shackled by their own commitment to pointing at the Book of Mormon and saying: "here be treasure."


We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, except for the parts where the translation errors from the Bible appear.
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_Arrakis
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Arrakis »

Google Bruce Metzger + Mark Ending

He wrote a detailed account of it's historicity and had a big influence on Bible scholars

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_trans_metzger3.html
_Tobin
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Tobin »

bcspace wrote:
Would you agree BC that IF it could be shown that Mark 16:9-20 was in fact a late scribal addition to the original manuscript that this would prove difficult for LDS apologists?


Sure. Apparently, it's a pretty big IF...


mackay11 wrote:The biggest irony of Mark 16 is that it should be among apologists favourite evidence to show that the Bible is flawed and corrupted by the designs of men... And yet they can't, shackled by their own commitment to pointing at the Book of Mormon and saying: "here be treasure."
I really doubt that is the case.

And as far as I can see so far, there is no evidence that Mark 16:9-20 is not inspired. And just so we are clear, if it is inspired, then the verses in the Book of Mormon are inspired as well and likely from the same source - namely God. But it isn't surprising that the critics don't believe the scriptures are inspired and don't believe in God. It is just par for the course.
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_bcspace
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _bcspace »

The biggest irony of Mark 16 is that it should be among apologists favourite evidence to show that the Bible is flawed and corrupted by the designs of men... And yet they can't, shackled by their own commitment to pointing at the Book of Mormon and saying: "here be treasure."


Romney made the mistake of quoting AoF 1:8 in his first Primary campaign. He was asked "Do you believe every word in this book?" referring to the Bible. Giving the stock answer likely led to his loss in Iowa.

Instead, it's better to argue AoF1:8 in combination with 1 Nephi 13 which explains how the Bible has been corrupted. It's not so much that what is there has been corrupted, it's about what has been removed. Hence, yes, this could be a case of people trying to remove scripture.

The ECF testified of the same so there is really no question scholarship-wise that the Bible has been corrupted in that way. Other christians will of course argue that was God preserving His word by only allowing the correct words to remain.
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_Craig Paxton
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Re: How did Mark 16:18 get into the Book of Mormon?

Post by _Craig Paxton »

bcspace wrote:
Would you agree BC that IF it could be shown that Mark 16:9-20 was in fact a late scribal addition to the original manuscript that this would prove difficult for LDS apologists?


Sure. Apparently, it's a pretty big IF...


Mark your calendars people...BC is pragmatic after all...there is still hope for him
Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
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