Apostasy among the ranks

[_cognitiveharmony]

I am wondering if our mission, in our era is an outlier in this respect, or others have a similar observation about their own, and if so, what might be the hypothesis as to why this phenomena that seems to be counter intuitive is so.

Couldn't say. I haven't kept track of those individuals. I myself was a ZL and I read and saw and kept track of virtually every anti Mormon argument in existence at the time through today (there's never been anything different or new, just the same old anti arguments regurgitated with new trappings) as well as debate with some of the more well-known anti Mormon pastors and figureheads of the time.

If that doesn't cause me apostatize, nothing will.

In other words, you've never been able to reason logically, nor given any credence to probability. It's the old apologist 2-step, rationalize, then compartmentalize. I'd like to hear the names of a couple of these "well-known" anti Mormon pastors and figureheads.

[_Sanctorian]

Couldn't say. I haven't kept track of those individuals. I myself was a ZL and I read and saw and kept track of virtually every anti Mormon argument in existence at the time through today (there's never been anything different or new, just the same old anti arguments regurgitated with new trappings) as well as debate with some of the more well-known anti Mormon pastors and figureheads of the time.

If that doesn't cause me apostatize, nothing will.

I debated some well-known anti Mormon pastors on my mission as well. At the time, I thought I had won the argument. Looking back on the debates now, I realize if a moderator were present, the victor would not have been me.

Somehow I doubt a 20 year old BCSpace would be any more victorious than the middle aged defender is today.

[Guest]

@canpakes, you stated:

He's built an entire life within the framework of it being 'true', and there's no alternative structure that he prefers to identify with and define himself within. It is everything that he has known since birth. There's nothing wrong with this...

I disagree firmly with you. It's of the utmost import that we humans possess the ability to identify fallacy, make appropriate adjustments, and live in a manner that's based on fact... not fiction. It's fantasy that leads us to folly. If we're going to have any sort of long-term viability as a species we need to leave behind the notion that we're going to die, so we better make peace with a Creator because we're going to have to explain ourselves to Him at some point, so we better not let the faggots marry, and it's cool if Mr. Smith married other mens' wives because Mr. Smith said it was the will of the Lord.

That's absurd, and Mr. Space not only holds onto that position, but he promulgates it... and really, his kind of thinking extends from the absurd into the dangerous, and it ought to be exposed and countered when possible.

V/R
Doc

I should have clarified that the last part of my statement has conditions inasmuch as, "there's nothing wrong with this", refers to that person's acceptance and choice for himself.

It is an issue when the person believing a thing then attempts to sway another individual, possibly to their detriment.

My SO and I have had this discussion as we have a newborn son. My desire is that we can balance a sense of his family's past history - which includes their participation in the LDS Church - with an alternate contemporary viewpoint rooted much more in an agnostic considerations, and a strong appreciation for science and truth, especially where facts contradict religious ideology. We have to deal with the fact that he'll have close family that is uber-active in the Church, but I have absolutely no desire to see him turn into a 'true blue' believer because of observations of how free thought and reason are shackled when under the confines of 'doctrine' and 'religious authorities'.

Still, I'll have to allow him to find his own path, and if that involves a level of belief in the Church's truth claims that exceeds my own (which, frankly, is any level at all) then I will respect his decision, so much as he is considerate of the belief levels of others and treats their position accurately and respectfully.

I 'get' the place that folks like my friend are in - they don't use their belief as a cudgel against others; they're content to let it guide them to be a decent person who has found that reaching that goal is well-served by the authoritarian and detailed template laid out by the Church. He honestly doesn't understand how to do it any differently; this is his own statement. I could argue with that statement, but it would be a pointless exercise. Whether or not he needed the Church to be the person that he is today is moot; I don't believe that it is necessary but he has no other 'life experience' reference to judge by.

Where my friend differs from bcspace is that he doesn't promulgate his theological point of view, nor claim to know that the 'Church is True'. He just accepts that it makes no difference at this point in his life if it is not, at least for himself (I could not come to the same conclusion).

But I've also met a few folks who more or less admit to the following thought process:

- My identity = 'The Church'
- 'The Church' is... not true? What you say!! *
- If so, my identity and life are without truth or value.
- That cannot be allowed to be the case, therefore, the Church must be True.
- ::press forward with vigorous apologetics to convince the self::

* with apologies to grammarians and AYBABTU fans

This response looks to be couched in a false dilemma, as a form of self-preservation, and I believe that it tacitly admits to a realization of the lie that the Church is founded upon, even if these folks give every appearance of being as TBM as possible. My opinion is that this is where bc falls.

I figure that many present apostates, by comparison, did not maintain that the ties between their identity and 'The Church' are unassailable, and are willing to sever those ties where the truth warrants it, as opposed to the steadfast apologist who digs his/her heels in and presses aggressively outward to maintain nearly any 'Church is True' claim that can be made, while giving only as much ground as would be required to avoid looking like a denier of the wholly obvious.

So that's where the "there's nothing wrong with this" statement enters into the picture... to the extent that bc may have no direct influence or control over anyone else on this board, then neither he or my friend are substantially different than millions of other folks who possess a similar or dissimilar theological belief set. I cannot really deny either their right to preserve their identity as he sees fit. However, to the extent that they might use their own beliefs to disadvantage others or deploy emotional blackmail (my term for what the Church does with many of its teachings and doctrinal approaches), then that is not OK.

Anyhow, apologies for the ramble... trying to chart a path as a jackmo family amongst the TBMs that we love is a precarious and curious path...

[_MisterTabernacle]

I was AP. Two of my favorite APs have also left. Two zone leaders I know well have left. Two zone leaders and one more AP are trying NOM, but are really on their way out. They just don't know it yet.

[_Mormonicious]

Of my mission, over 50% of the former male sales force (Elder) have gone inactive and of those 75% have either had their names removed, been excommunicated or will not self identify as a Mormon.

Of my mission, only 20% of the former female sales force (Sister) have have gone inactive and of those 100% have left for "moral" transgressions (either excommunicated or living in sin and not willing to self identify as a Mormon).

Count me as one of the non-self identifying.

[_Maksutov]

I am wondering if our mission, in our era is an outlier in this respect, or others have a similar observation about their own, and if so, what might be the hypothesis as to why this phenomena that seems to be counter intuitive is so.

Couldn't say. I haven't kept track of those individuals. I myself was a ZL and I read and saw and kept track of virtually every anti Mormon argument in existence at the time through today (there's never been anything different or new, just the same old anti arguments regurgitated with new trappings) as well as debate with some of the more well-known anti Mormon pastors and figureheads of the time.

If that doesn't cause me apostatize, nothing will.

Dude, your superpowers deserve a whole new comic book.

[_Racer]

I was a ZL and am apostate. Our mission President used to tell us that 30% of missionaries leave the church within several years of serving. If you would have told me back then that I would be one of the 30%, I would have laughed in your face. I am not sure if he got this statistic from the church or if he just pulled it out of thin air.

[_cwald]

Many of my missionary friends and companions have left or are NOMish.

[_Sethbag]

I haven't talked to or heard from any missionary companions for a long time. A number of years ago one of my MTC teachers, who'd gone to the same mission as me, contacted me in regards to a mission reunion. I mentioned I'd apostatized, and he stopped corresponding with me.

I'd be interested in knowing how many missionaries I served with have since apostatized. I was told by a GA during a mission conference that around 20% of RMs eventually leave the church. I'd have laughed if anyone suggested I'd be one of them. That was in around 1989 or so. I wonder if that statistic has increased since then, due to subsequent invention of the internet.

I did find out, around 10 years ago, that a young, dynamic ward mission leader that I was very close to for around six months on my mission, had left the church.

For the record, I was a DL once, for six months, and that's as high as I ever went in the hierarchy. I guess one thing that factored into it was that I never made up numbers, and reported what actually happened, not what the muckety mucks wanted to hear. I guess I took it too seriously to lie about it.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Thankfully I never gave in to the pressure to waste two years of my youth pushing the Xtian MLM of LDS Inc on deaf ears.

However, my brother who left LDS Inc with his wife and family a few years after I did, rose quickly to ZL and AP in his mission to Rochester NY.

He lived close enough to the "Sacred Grove" for a while and every morning the mission prez had them all go out and kneel to pray, until "they felt the spirit of truth".

He lived in hallowed quarters for a while, IN the Martin Harris farm home.

He was also the top Elder at zone conferences for being able to recite the most number of scriptures from memory.

For six years he has been a happy atheist along with his wife and children.